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Topic: OT - Weird History

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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #4718 on: May 05, 2025, 01:33:56 PM »
I like the term "unknowable" in this framework.

MikeDeTiger

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #4719 on: May 05, 2025, 01:52:00 PM »
Not going to get into our philosophy thread (which ultimately brings in religious themes), but I view it as essentially an unknowable question.

I.e., we can ask if something existed "before" the Big Bang, or if the Big Bang "created" the universe out of nothingness? There are theories... One is that the universe is cyclical, i.e. that a Big Bang will occur, the universe will expand, and over time it will re-contract into a singularity, until the next Big Bang occurs. (I know there are also problems with that theory because our current universe appears to be expanding at an ever-greater rate until it eventually suffers heat death, and we don't see any signs based on the limited things we know that a "contraction" is a thing...)

But the idea that physics breaks down "before" the Big Bang is in my mind simply an admission that we believe that the answer to that question is unknowable. The observable universe is only post-Big Bang, as we understand it. So whether something existed prior to the Big Bang or not, we can't see beyond that moment.

I've heard philosophers distinguish between "logically prior" and "temporally prior." 

Again, I don't think the claim is that physics breaks down "before" the Big Bang, I think the claim is that physics breaks down in the earliest moments of the Big Bang.  And it's probably not that "physics breaks down," rather, the mathematical descriptions which accurately apply to the observable universe may have to be altered in the earliest moments to accurately apply to that time, possibly due to everything unfolding in between 11 and 20-something dimensions.  Very early on, all but three spatial dimensions kind of quit--so goes the theory--and only 3 dimension continued to expand.  That's my layman's understanding, anyway.  I don't think they're suggesting there were no physical constants, only that the current ones don't hold up in the earliest fraction of a second.  

My gut currently expands in three dimensions.  No telling what kind of physics laws I'd have to tweak if it were to expand in 11.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #4720 on: May 05, 2025, 03:06:34 PM »
[img width=367.997 height=500]https://i.imgur.com/GClG7Bv.png[/img]
The V-2 Rocket engine - slightly more complicated than it looks! Alcohol and liquid oxygen were pumped into the combustion chamber by means of two fuel pumps mounted on a common axis. These powerful pumps were driven by a steam turbine with a power of 675 H.P.
At full power the pumps had an output of 5000 revolutions per minute. Only this way could the 8.75 tons of fuel be delivered in 6 to 7 minutes. The pumping unit weighed 450 kilogram.
The steam for the turbine was produced in a generator. Hydro peroxide and calcium permanganate were mixed in the generator. The resulting chemical reaction generated overheated steam, which drove the turbines.
The turbine pump and the steam generator were the most vulnerable parts of the V2: only one factory at Jenbach in Austria could produce the turbine pumps. This required high precision machines and an eminent production management.
The Allies were not aware of this and never employed their strategic bombardments against this factory. The interruption of the supply of turbine pumps would certainly have stopped the production of V2s immediately27.
The alcohol and liquid oxygen were vaporised under pressure by the injection nozzles and delivered to the combustion chamber. After combustion, the gases at a temperature of 1700º C expanded in a nozzle, giving a thrust of 27 to 28.000 kilograms, more than enough to propel the rocket.
Four rotating graphite vanes in the tail stabilized the rocket during take-off. External aerodynamic vanes could control the direction while the rocket was in flight.
Control became necessary, when the gyroscopes would detect differences between intended flight path and actual flight path.
The thing was an amazing technical accomplishment but the resources devoted to it by the Germans are staggering and the amount of damage that they did was, by WWII standards, negligible.  If they had managed to develop a nuclear warhead for it, that would have been devastating and, quite possibly war-ending but with "mere" conventional ordinance it was more of a nuisance than anything else.  

One thing I've never understood (probably because I'm not a rocket scientist) is why the range on it was so short.  I knew they were only used against London and later some mainland European Cities.  I looked it up on WIKI and the listed range is 320 km, 200 mi.  I don't get that.  It got to an insane altitude and it seems to me that, at that altitude, it wouldn't take all that much fuel to cross the Atlantic so . . . why didn't they?  I think I'm missing something.  

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #4721 on: May 05, 2025, 03:20:24 PM »
Its design also contributed to American rocketry following WWII. The V-2's liquid oxygen and alcohol propellants produced a thrust of 56,000 pounds, giving the rocket a maximum range of 220 miles, a ceiling of 50-60 miles and a speed of 3,400 mph.

Modern ICBMs have three stages (generally).  The V2 was of course single stage.  The first stage of a Minuteman has around 178,000 pounds of thrust, so not terribly more than a V2, but then you have two more stages to go.

As for using a nuclear weapon on one, our first atomic bombs weight 10,000 pounds, and were quite large in size.  The entire loaded V2 weight about 3 times that, with a much lesser payload (1600 pounds I see listed).


betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #4722 on: May 05, 2025, 03:29:49 PM »
The thing was an amazing technical accomplishment but the resources devoted to it by the Germans are staggering and the amount of damage that they did was, by WWII standards, negligible.    
Yeah, I've read the same. I think they were great at terrorizing the British public, being a new weapon that could arrive out of nowhere, much unlike say a fleet of bombers. But that they rarely hit anywhere close to where they were supposed to, and that the expense vs the payload meant that they weren't really effective at scale. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #4723 on: May 05, 2025, 03:56:26 PM »
Yeah, I've read the same. I think they were great at terrorizing the British public, being a new weapon that could arrive out of nowhere, much unlike say a fleet of bombers. But that they rarely hit anywhere close to where they were supposed to, and that the expense vs the payload meant that they weren't really effective at scale.
Some context:
According to Wiki, the V2's killed about 9,000 people.  That is a LOT but on the scale of WWII, it isn't.  The Firebombing of Tokyo killed 11x that and that was just ONE bombing raid against Japan.  

Also according to wiki, around 12,000 laborers and concentration camp prisoners died producing the V2's.  Not that this is MORE than the number killed by it's use.  
Its design also contributed to American rocketry following WWII. The V-2's liquid oxygen and alcohol propellants produced a thrust of 56,000 pounds, giving the rocket a maximum range of 220 miles, a ceiling of 50-60 miles and a speed of 3,400 mph.
I guess that explains it.  You need stage 1 to get to space then stage 2 to move in space?  What is stage 3?  

My thinking here is that if they had been able to drop these on the East Coast of the US, that would have been a major change.  As it was, they were only useful against areas that had already been targeted during the Blitz of 1940 and again by the V1's so it wasn't a game changer.  Suddenly dropping warheads on NYC would have been.  I don't think it would have actually done anything other than make the Americans madder than they already were but at least it would have been a new target.  

As for using a nuclear weapon on one, our first atomic bombs weight 10,000 pounds, and were quite large in size.  The entire loaded V2 weight about 3 times that, with a much lesser payload (1600 pounds I see listed).
I get that it wasn't actually feasible with 1940's technology the point I was trying to make was simply that the weapon would only have been worth the trouble to produce it IF they had been able to mount a nuclear warhead on it.  

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #4724 on: May 05, 2025, 04:04:28 PM »
I get that it wasn't actually feasible with 1940's technology the point I was trying to make was simply that the weapon would only have been worth the trouble to produce it IF they had been able to mount a nuclear warhead on it. 
I do think this is discounting the emotional / propaganda / terror value of the weapon.

On 9/11 terrorists destroyed two buildings (and some of a third), four airplanes, and killed ~3,000 people. 

And the result was scaring a HELL of a lot of Americans, remaking US foreign policy for a decade plus to the tunes of trillions spent and two wars... And the real tragedy? I spent two decades being forced to take my shoes off every time I went through airport security until I got TSA Precheck!

In retrospect, the V2 wasn't all that meaningful, tactically. But I doubt the Brits at the time were so blasé about it. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #4725 on: May 05, 2025, 04:13:51 PM »
I do think this is discounting the emotional / propaganda / terror value of the weapon.

On 9/11 terrorists destroyed two buildings (and some of a third), four airplanes, and killed ~3,000 people.

And the result was scaring a HELL of a lot of Americans, remaking US foreign policy for a decade plus to the tunes of trillions spent and two wars... And the real tragedy? I spent two decades being forced to take my shoes off every time I went through airport security until I got TSA Precheck!

In retrospect, the V2 wasn't all that meaningful, tactically. But I doubt the Brits at the time were so blasé about it.
They maybe weren't THAT blase about it, but I also don't think it had anywhere near the impact of 9/11 despite killing roughly 3x the number of people.  

9/11 was so impactful in large part because we were NOT at war and there weren't prior bombing attacks anything remotely equivalent to the blitz or the V1's.  Ie, V2's in 1944 weren't all that different from what Londoners had been dealing with prior to the V2.  New Yorkers in 2001 had no such comparison.  

That is also why I think it would have had a LOT more impact if they had been able to drop them on NYC.  To New Yorkers in 1944 the war was something you read about in the paper and that other people were fighting.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #4726 on: May 05, 2025, 04:15:55 PM »
They maybe weren't THAT blase about it, but I also don't think it had anywhere near the impact of 9/11 despite killing roughly 3x the number of people. 

9/11 was so impactful in large part because we were NOT at war and there weren't prior bombing attacks anything remotely equivalent to the blitz or the V1's.  Ie, V2's in 1944 weren't all that different from what Londoners had been dealing with prior to the V2.  New Yorkers in 2001 had no such comparison. 

That is also why I think it would have had a LOT more impact if they had been able to drop them on NYC.  To New Yorkers in 1944 the war was something you read about in the paper and that other people were fighting. 
I should add, in defense of your position that the allies did devote a substantial amount of resources to attempting to take out the V2's.  They launched multiple air-raids against Peenemunde (SP?) and against launch sites.  That was probably the biggest impact on the war in that the resources used to attack V2 launch and production sites were diverted from something else.  

Gigem

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #4727 on: May 05, 2025, 04:54:58 PM »
Remember, V2 was the brainchild of Werner Von Braun.  Despite being a V2, this was really a Version 1 rocket.  None other existed before it.  I'm sure they had plans for bigger and more capable rockets, they simply didn't have enough time/money/materials to get them produced before the war ended.  Wasn't the V2 only about the last 1-1.5 years of the war?  

The other thing is that it's well documented that Hitler was not in his right mind for a long time before the war ended.  They also had jet engine planes and cruise missiles that they misused.  Hitler essentially ignored most of his generals and other experienced leaders.  

Basically, the Germans "won" the first half of WWII by a score of 30-3, with the 3 being Dunkirk.  After that they failed to conquer Russia, and then once everyone else's tactics evolved and Blitzkreig no longer worked it was all downhill.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #4728 on: May 05, 2025, 05:46:29 PM »
Remember, V2 was the brainchild of Werner Von Braun.  Despite being a V2, this was really a Version 1 rocket.  None other existed before it.  I'm sure they had plans for bigger and more capable rockets, they simply didn't have enough time/money/materials to get them produced before the war ended.  Wasn't the V2 only about the last 1-1.5 years of the war? 
The "V2" doesn't stand for version 2 rocket, it is "Vengeance Weapon 2".  Vengeance Weapon 1 was a jet powered missile.  

The V1 was fast but the allies had fighters fast enough that they could and sometimes did shoot them down in flight.  Literally it's ONLY defense was speed.  It didn't evade at all because it wasn't piloted so if you could get into the right place to intercept it, it could be shot down.  
The other thing is that it's well documented that Hitler was not in his right mind for a long time before the war ended.  They also had jet engine planes and cruise missiles that they misused.  Hitler essentially ignored most of his generals and other experienced leaders. 
The main counter argument to this is that it really made no difference.  Once the USSR survived the initial onslaught and the US got involved, the Germans simply had no chance.  If you look at production figures the British more-or-less matched German production.  Soviet production was substantially higher than German/British and US Production dwarfed all of that.  Nothing the Germans could have done would have been enough to dig them out of that hole.  
Basically, the Germans "won" the first half of WWII by a score of 30-3, with the 3 being Dunkirk.  After that they failed to conquer Russia, and then once everyone else's tactics evolved and Blitzkreig no longer worked it was all downhill. 
Blitzkreig didn't stop working.  Essentially it is modern mechanized warfare as it is still practiced today.  The problem for the Germans wasn't that it stopped working it was two things:
  • Everybody else caught up, and
  • Scale.  

The scale issue is the most fascinating thing about WWII to me.  When Germany invaded France in 1940 they had ~2,500 tanks.  Three years later they had ~3,000 tanks at the Battle of Kursk and that was just one battle on the Eastern Front and they were easily outnumbered by superior Soviet Tanks.  Two years after that the Soviets hit Berlin with more than 6,000 tanks.  Ie, the Soviets had more tanks facing just the City of Berlin in 1945 than the Germans had facing the entire nation of France five years earlier.  

The Germans simply couldn't keep up with the expansion in scale.  


One thing about the German army of WWII that most people don't realize is that it wasn't all that mechanized.  They had highly mechanized units at the tip of the spear but the vast majority of the German troops that went into the Soviet Union walked and most of their gear was carried by wagons pulled by animals.  In the US, UK, and USSR armies of 1945 not only was the tip of the spear mechanized, the entire army was mechanized with Studebaker Trucks (including for the Soviets) handling the logistics.  

MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #4729 on: May 05, 2025, 05:46:46 PM »
In retrospect, the V2 wasn't all that meaningful, tactically. But I doubt the Brits at the time were so blasé about it.
Montgomery was using the taking out the V-2s sites as reason to go ahead with his dunderheaded blunder operation market garden.He never touched them but the HEER moved the launchers and began killing more people in Antwerp than in London. The Dutch really got hammered in that war
"Let us endeavor so to live - that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #4730 on: May 05, 2025, 05:51:16 PM »
The V1 was fast but the allies had fighters fast enough that they could and sometimes did shoot them down in flight.  Literally it's ONLY defense was speed.  It didn't evade at all because it wasn't piloted so if you could get into the right place to intercept it, it could be shot down.
This is actually fascinating to me so I'll expand on it:
The allies (almost all British) didn't actually shoot the V1's down so much as literally tip them over.  The problem was that the V1 had a very large warhead and if you shot at the missile you could detonate the warhead which could result in the destruction of your aircraft (and perhaps even your death) because in order to shoot at it effectively you had to be behind it and flying towards it so when it blew up, you unavoidably flew right through the blast.  

They somehow figured out that the V1's guidance system couldn't self-correct from a rollover.  Thus, the preferred method to take them out was to put your wing under the V1 wing which would increase the lift on that side and then basically "flip" it over.  At that point it's guidance system failed and it crashed.  

MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #4731 on: May 05, 2025, 08:55:44 PM »
One thing about the German army of WWII that most people don't realize is that it wasn't all that mechanized.  They had highly mechanized units at the tip of the spear but the vast majority of the German troops that went into the Soviet Union walked and most of their gear was carried by wagons pulled by animals.  In the US, UK, and USSR armies of 1945 not only was the tip of the spear mechanized, the entire army was mechanized with Studebaker Trucks (including for the Soviets) handling the logistics. 
 well they were but their artillery was pulled by horses that simply couldn't keep up with the well fueled American Army.Any of the quick moving armies such as Patton's,"Lightning Joe" Collins, Alexander Patch's,Lucien Truscott's and that ilk were going to hammer the Gerries because of it. They simply started to hole up,put out mine fields and cover any avenues of approach with 88s,pak 75s if I remember right. And the US thru lend lease gave the Reds 427,000 GMC/Ford/Studebaker 2 & 1/2 ton trucks that were invaluable to them for not only troop transport but mounting rocket launchers

 Major, General, Anthony C. McAuliffe studied the FM radios that the Connecticut State Police had began using and convinced the Army to develop FM vehicle radios.  These provided a strong clear signal for about forty miles.  Germany developed a family of high frequency vehicle radios for military use, but their radios were not nearly as effective as the American versions.  By the last year of the war in Europe, Germany was deploying its own family of FM radios.

 The sophistication of American fire direction developed at Fort Sill included the uniquely American ability, at that time:  to have several batteries fire “Time on Target” (TOT) shoots.  The fire direction center directing the TOT broadcast a countdown to all of the batteries participating in the shoot.  Each battery calculated the time of flight from their guns to the target.  Each fired during the countdown at a time that caused the initial rounds from all of the guns to impact the target simultaneously.  Its effect was shattering.

 The sophistication of American fire direction is illustrated in an anecdote in My War, a memoir by Dr. Don Fusler, a soldier who served on a 57mm antitank gun crew.  His unit had occupied a large farm in western Germany.  On three occasions German artillery fire came in on them with suspicious accuracy, twice hitting tank destroyers and once the unit mess.  A Russian slave laborer told them that when they had occupied the farm a German captain had been on leave there and had stayed behind with a radio when the rest of the defenders pulled out.  He was captured and in his possession was a map showing all of the German artillery positions in the area.  It was turned over to the division artillery which conducted a simultaneous TOT shoot on all of the German positions.  No other artillery in the world could have done that at that time.
"Let us endeavor so to live - that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

 

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