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Topic: OT - Weird History

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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1092 on: October 01, 2022, 05:28:42 PM »
I was the head coach 

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1093 on: October 03, 2022, 04:21:21 AM »
Today In History : 3 October (1942)
The first A4 rocket, later dubbed the V-2, flies from Peenemünde, covering 190 km (120 mi) in 296 seconds at five times the speed of sound, reaching an altitude of 84.5 km (52.5 mi).
The V-2 (German: Vergeltungswaffe 2, lit. 'Retaliation Weapon 2'), with the technical name Aggregat 4 (A4), was the world’s first long-range guided ballistic missile. The missile, powered by a liquid-propellant rocket engine, was developed during the Second World War in Nazi Germany as a "vengeance weapon" and assigned to attack Allied cities as retaliation for the Allied bombings against German cities. The V-2 rocket also became the first artificial object to travel into space by crossing the Kármán line (edge of space) with the vertical launch of MW 18014 on 20 June 1944.
Research into military use of long-range rockets began when the graduate studies of Wernher von Braun attracted the attention of the Wehrmacht. A series of prototypes culminated in the A-4, which went to war as the V-2. Beginning in September 1944, over 3,000 V-2s were launched by the Nazi Wehrmacht against Allied targets, first London and later Antwerp and Liège. According to a 2011 BBC documentary, the attacks from V-2s resulted in the deaths of an estimated 9,000 civilians and military personnel, and a further 12,000 forced laborers and Nazi concentration camps prisoners died as a result of their forced participation in the production of the weapons.
The rockets travelled at supersonic speed, impacted without audible warning, and proved unstoppable, as no effective defense existed. Teams from the Allied forces—the United States, the United Kingdom, and the Soviet Union—raced to seize key Nazi manufacturing facilities, procure the Nazis' missile technology, and capture the V-2’s launching sites. Von Braun and over 100 key V-2 personnel surrendered to the Americans, and many of the original V-2 team ended up working at the Redstone Arsenal. The US also captured enough V-2 hardware to build approximately 80 of the missiles. The Soviets gained possession of the V-2 manufacturing facilities after the war, re-established V-2 production, and moved it to the Soviet Union.


Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1094 on: October 03, 2022, 06:48:03 AM »


German Navy 15” / 38cm SK L/45 “Lange Max" (Long Max) Railroad Gun firing on the Western Front - 1918

Newer US battleships in WW 2 carried nine guns slightly larger than this one (16" 45 or 50 calibers).


FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1095 on: October 03, 2022, 10:14:54 AM »
BOOM!!!
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1096 on: October 03, 2022, 10:35:27 AM »
THIS DAY IN HISTORY: 

Battle of Mogadishu Begins (1993)
In 1992, US armed forces, together with the United Nations, undertook a joint relief operation in Somalia, a country wracked by civil war and famine. Increasing violence in the area led to "Operation Gothic Serpent," a US mission to capture Somali warlord Mohamed Farrah Aidid's top advisors, but two US helicopters were shot down, and an urban battle ensued. Eighteen US servicemen and thousands of Somalis died in the fighting.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1097 on: October 03, 2022, 10:46:53 AM »
Teams from the Allied forces—the United States, the United Kingdom, and the Soviet Union—raced to seize key Nazi manufacturing facilities, procure the Nazis' missile technology, and capture the V-2’s launching sites. Von Braun and over 100 key V-2 personnel surrendered to the Americans, and many of the original V-2 team ended up working at the Redstone Arsenal. The US also captured enough V-2 hardware to build approximately 80 of the missiles. The Soviets gained possession of the V-2 manufacturing facilities after the war, re-established V-2 production, and moved it to the Soviet Union.
My dad always said that in the early days of the space race when the Soviets and Americans were first putting rocket's into space the joke was that the Soviet and American rocket's were up there talking to each other in German. It isn't far off from the truth.

It is interesting, if you look at a pre-WWI map of Germany it was vastly larger than modern Germany. In the East it included Konigsberg (now Kalinningrad in Russia), Bresalu (now Worclaw in Poland), Danzig (now Gdansk in Poland), and in the West it included the now French states of Alsace and Lorraine.

One wonders where Germany would be today if they hadn't started and lost the two largest conflicts in human history.

Acording to this site, the German Empire had the world's third largest economy in 1910. Problem was that they picked a fight with #1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, and others.
Largest economies in 1910:
  • USA, eventually an Allied power
  • China, but they weren't wealthy just big
  • German Empire
  • India, same as #2 but an Allied power as part of the UK
  • UK, Allied power
  • Russia, Allied power
  • France, Allied power
  • Italy, Allied power
  • Japan, Allied power
  • Poland, Allied power (sorta)
  • Dutch East Indies, neutral as part of the Netherlands
  • Spain, neutral
  • Belgium, Allied power
  • Canada, Allied power as part of the UK
  • Argentina, neutral


Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1098 on: October 03, 2022, 11:16:28 AM »
I have pondered what would have happened had the Germans won WW One, either in 1914 or 1918.  My guess is the settlement would be something like what happened in 1871.


Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1099 on: October 03, 2022, 11:52:08 AM »


That's a fact, Jack...

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1100 on: October 03, 2022, 12:11:37 PM »
I have pondered what would have happened had the Germans won WW One, either in 1914 or 1918.  My guess is the settlement would be something like what happened in 1871.
It is an interesting question. I don't think they had much of a chance in 1918 because American troops were arriving in France at a rate of 10,000 per day. I'm not saying that as a product of being Americentric, or to say that US Troops were better than their French, British, or German counterparts, it is simply a matter of numbers. The warring nations had been locked in a stalemate for four years and the introduction of (eventually) 2M extra troops for one side was inherently going to tip the balance.

In 1914, however, I think that the Central Powers could absolutely have overrun France. The Germans did that a quarter-century later and lost anyway but things were different in 1914.

If the Germans hadn't pulled troops out of their advance into France to defeat Russians in East Prussia (which turned out to be paper Tigers anyway) then I think they'd have won on the Marne, the Brits would have looked to get their army off the continent, and France would have fallen.

If Russia eventually collapses anyway (likely), and Italy decides to sit the war out (likely in that scenario) then the Brits would have been alone and the US wouldn't have had a clear reason to get involved.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1101 on: October 03, 2022, 12:13:19 PM »
I figure in 1918 they could win if the US didn't get into it.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1102 on: October 03, 2022, 02:04:48 PM »
I figure in 1918 they could win if the US didn't get into it.
Well there is that hypothetical possibility.

German diplomacy post Bismark was one catastrophic failure after another right up through WWII.

They managed to fight two enormous wars in a little over 20 years without a worthwhile ally in either one.

In WWII the underlying problem was ideological rather than diplomatic, of course. National Socialism was always going to be a hard sell abroad. However, their diplomatic failures before and during WWI were probably decisive:
  • If they hadn't threatened British naval supremacy by building a completely unnecessary fleet the Brits would have been more likely to sit the war out. Worse, the German Fleet in WWI was exactly the wrong size. It was just big enough to annoy the British without actually being large enough to challenge them.
  • If they hadn't invaded Belgium to get to France the Brits almost certainly would have stayed out and even a short hesitation by the Brits would likely have given the Germans enough time to overrun France. That would have had two strategic benefits for the Germans. First, with France out, Britain would have been even less likely to get involved. Second, even if Britain did get involved they wouldn't have had an Allied continental neighbor to receive the British army.
  • Unrestricted submarine warfare was technically illegal under the then-existing laws of war but so was Britain's total blockade of the continent. British propaganda agents in the US saw to it that the general public was informed of Germany's illegal submarine attacks but their German counterparts abjectly failed to make anything out of Britain's illegal blockade.
Marginally competent diplomacy would likely have kept at least the US out of the war and reasonably decent diplomacy would have kept the Brits out as well.


MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1103 on: October 03, 2022, 02:48:09 PM »
One wonders where Germany would be today if they hadn't started and lost the two largest conflicts in human history.
Germany hardly started the 1st World War which was a continuation of old hostilities and allegiances.And WWII was an extension of that.Look harder you'll find an English Crown in fact had it's dirty fingers involved.The same fingers that twice tried to pry us from our "unalienable rights"
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1104 on: October 03, 2022, 03:55:59 PM »
Germany hardly started the 1st World War which was a continuation of old hostilities and allegiances.And WWII was an extension of that.Look harder you'll find an English Crown in fact had it's dirty fingers involved.The same fingers that twice tried to pry us from our "unalienable rights"
Well . . .

I admit that my phrasing was a little harsh wrt WWI and I think the Germans were unfairly deemed wholly responsible for it at Versailles. However, it wasn't the British that gave the Hapsburgs a blank check even AFTER Serbia agreed to nearly all of Austria's demands and it wasn’t the Brits that decided to violate Belgian neutrality either.

Even before the September crisis though, Germany's diplomatic failures had put them in a very difficult situation. Austria-Hungary was a nearly worthless ally (they couldn't even handle either the Russisns or the Italians without significant German help) and Italy was less than worthless (they not only ducked their obligations on the basis of it being an offensive war, they later joined the other side). The Ottomans chewed up a bunch of Allied troops (mostly ANZACS) in Churchill's failed campaign but they didn't actually contribute much.

Once the Serbs mostly caved the smart play would have been for the Kaiser to push back from the table and wait. At the time France was getting progressively weaker, Russia was perennially near collapse, and the German Navy was growing relative to the RN.

MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1105 on: October 03, 2022, 05:02:08 PM »
Well . . .

I admit that my phrasing was a little harsh wrt WWI and I think the Germans were unfairly deemed wholly responsible for it at Versailles. However, it wasn't the British that gave the Hapsburgs a blank check even AFTER Serbia agreed to nearly all of Austria's demands and it wasn’t the Brits that decided to violate Belgian neutrality either.

Even before the September crisis though, Germany's diplomatic failures had put them in a very difficult situation. Austria-Hungary was a nearly worthless ally (they couldn't even handle either the Russisns or the Italians without significant German help) and Italy was less than worthless (they not only ducked their obligations on the basis of it being an offensive war, they later joined the other side). The Ottomans chewed up a bunch of Allied troops (mostly ANZACS) in Churchill's failed campaign but they didn't actually contribute much.

Once the Serbs mostly caved the smart play would have been for the Kaiser to push back from the table and wait. At the time France was getting progressively weaker, Russia was perennially near collapse, and the German Navy was growing relative to the RN.
It was the Brits that had their noses and armies in/out of Europe for how many hundreds of years? And it most certainly was the Crown that violated international law blockading Germany's Northern ports in the Baltic & North Seas that led to the 750,000 Germans to starve to death in WWI and left the following generations stunted and malnourished.Also they cut the Trans-Atlantic telegraph lines another violation.And as if that wasn't enough their Royals foisted the Treaty of Versailles on them that was voted down by the United States Congress. So starved and completely broke they had an axe to grind with the Empire that the Sun never sets on.Whose Lords,Dukes,Earls,Viscounts never lost their Manors or estates from which they fox hunted and played cricket
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