header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: OT - D-Day, what if?

 (Read 10050 times)

CWSooner

  • Team Captain
  • *******
  • Posts: 6049
  • Liked:
Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #84 on: June 07, 2019, 11:48:38 AM »
Medina:

I second your recommendation of Shattered Sword.  It's an excellent updating of what we know about the Battle of Midway, with more thorough use of Japanese sources than the old account by Mitsuo Fuchida.

My only complaint is what I found the excessive use of Japanese-language terminology.  I'd much rather read "dive bomber" than kanbaku, especially since many contractions having to do with warships also start with kan.  It's almost as if Parshall and Tully went out of their way to demonstrate their fluency.
Play Like a Champion Today

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71584
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71584
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #86 on: June 07, 2019, 11:52:24 AM »
Some other movies I would like to see made with current technology:

Leyte Gulf
Peleliu
Guadalcanal

The Bulge (The Fonda movie was awful).
Hurtgen Forest
Kaserine Pass ??

France 1940

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71584
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #87 on: June 07, 2019, 11:57:33 AM »

CWSooner

  • Team Captain
  • *******
  • Posts: 6049
  • Liked:
Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #88 on: June 07, 2019, 12:02:45 PM »
Tora! Tora! Tora! will probably stand as the last great war movie with real (as opposed to CGI) airplanes.  They reused some of the Japanese airplanes from that movie in the miserable Charlton Heston Midway.  For the American planes, they used WWII footage of Hellcats and Avengers from 2-ish years later in the war.

One bad thing about CGI air-combat video is that the planes are made to do things that no planes and their human pilots would have been able to do in real life.

Yes, The Battle of the Bulge was terrible.  It was portrayed more on a sea of mud than on a winter battlefield.
Play Like a Champion Today

CWSooner

  • Team Captain
  • *******
  • Posts: 6049
  • Liked:
Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #89 on: June 07, 2019, 12:04:26 PM »
Were the tanks from the 741st the ones equipped with Duplex Drive (DD) Shermans that mostly sank before they reached the shore?
Play Like a Champion Today

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71584
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #90 on: June 07, 2019, 12:05:59 PM »
I recall in B of the B a scene where German tanks pulled up to a crest line and bombarded some town, I guess meant to be Bastogne.




Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71584
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #91 on: June 07, 2019, 12:06:56 PM »
Were the tanks from the 741st the ones equipped with Duplex Drive (DD) Shermans that mostly sank before they reached the shore?
I think so.  You know the surf was rough of course.  I can't imagine being in one of those.

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8906
  • Liked:
Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #92 on: June 07, 2019, 12:35:39 PM »
Production doesn't win wars.  It still takes human beings at the tip of the spear to risk their lives employing those machines.  But it's hard to win a war without the machines.
I agree wholeheartedly and I don't mean to disparage or minimize the bravery and sacrifice of the troops at, as you put it, the tip of the spear. 

That said, as you acknowledged, it is hard to win a war without the machines.  Minor shortcomings can be overcome through superior strategy or bravery or luck but as the material difference becomes larger, those things become less relevant.  Ie, if your enemy has 10-20% more material than you do, that might be a winnable war.  However, if your enemy has 100-200% more material than you do then your only plausible strategy is essentially the Ho Chi Minh strategy of extending the war until your enemy unilaterally decides to quit. 

Interestingly, Ho Chi Minh wasn't the first person to devise that strategy and he wasn't even the first to attempt to employ it against the US.  Toward the end of WWII the Japanese fully realized that a military victory simply was not going to happen.  Then their strategy became one of inflicting maximum casualties on the US in an effort to get the US to decide that winning wasn't worth the cost.  It didn't work for Tojo mostly because we simply didn't give him enough time.  A couple decades later in Vietnam (which was known as French Indochina during WWII and occupied by the Japanese) the US tried to win without getting heavily involved and that gave Ho Chi Minh the time he needed. 

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71584
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #93 on: June 07, 2019, 12:42:59 PM »
Speer's autobiographys is worth a read to understand German war materiel production.  He doesn't make excuses, which I found unique.

The Germans veered off into making all sorts of armored gear and an aircraft carrier and tricky things that they made two off, like massive guns.

Had they focused on making Panzer IVs and Panthers later and Stugs and perhaps Jagdpanthers later they would have been able to make a lot more of them.

The Panzer IV with the better 75 mm gun in the F model was a pretty good tank.

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8906
  • Liked:
Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #94 on: June 07, 2019, 12:43:54 PM »
Medina:

I second your recommendation of Shattered Sword.  It's an excellent updating of what we know about the Battle of Midway, with more thorough use of Japanese sources than the old account by Mitsuo Fuchida.

My only complaint is what I found the excessive use of Japanese-language terminology.  I'd much rather read "dive bomber" than kanbaku, especially since many contractions having to do with warships also start with kan.  It's almost as if Parshall and Tully went out of their way to demonstrate their fluency.
That was my only real complaint as well.  It was overdone to the point of just needlessly showing off. 

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8906
  • Liked:
Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #95 on: June 07, 2019, 12:52:37 PM »
Some other movies I would like to see made with current technology:

Leyte Gulf

While Leyte Gulf is interesting to me, I think it would be difficult to make an entertaining movie about it because there really was never any doubt about the outcome or even how it would be achieved.  By that point in the war the US was so vastly numerically superior that it would be difficult to build any kind of suspense. 

Bull's Run (Halsey taking the ENTIRE screening force with him after the "bait" carriers) is probably the most interesting part but it would be hard to get typical movie audiences to understand what was going on and why his leaving was so problematic and controversial until after they knew about the Battle off Samar. 

To explain what I mean, here from wiki, is the strength of the adversaries:
 - The US had 34 carriers (8CV, 8CVL, 18CVE), the Japanese had 6 (1CV, 3CVL, 2 hybrid carrier/battleships that weren't good at either function)
 - The US had 12 battleships, the Japanese had 7
 - The US had 24 cruisers, the Japanese had 20
 - The US had 166 destroyers and destroyer escorts, the Japanese had ~35
 - The US had 1,500 aircraft, the Japanese had ~300

When you look at the same comparison for Midway it is roughly comparable.  Either side could have won.  At Leyte Gulf the Japanese were facing an adversary that hopelessly outclassed them. 

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71584
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #96 on: June 07, 2019, 12:57:14 PM »
I would focus on the battle of the small boys against Kurita.

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71584
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #97 on: June 07, 2019, 12:57:33 PM »


Falaise gap residual.

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.