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Topic: OT - D-Day, what if?

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GopherRock

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2019, 08:50:01 AM »
Would a botched D Day also have forced a change of government at Whitehall? Churchill kept hanging on, even at the helm of a wartime government. Anything going sour on the landing could have pushed him out. 

Grandpa GR went ashore in Normandy later in the afternoon. He was an artilleryman, was awarded two Bronze Stars for bravery, and came back as deaf as a post in one ear. Unfortunately, he never told any of this to anyone prior to his sudden death in 2001. We only learned about it by reading his DD214. He passed before the movement to record the vet's stories really reached critical mass. We're taking some of our wedding flowers out to his headstone at Fort Snelling later this morning. 

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2019, 08:57:54 AM »
Many of the amphibious landings of note in WW II did "go bad" to an extent, all of them had flaws.  The initial day at Guadalcanal and Okinawa went OK because the Japanese didn't counterattack, same as with Iwo early.  Anzio was a near disaster.  The British attack on the toe of Italy was bungled.  I guess Sicily went fairly well considering.  North Africa went against French troops.  In WW I, Gallipoli was a disaster.

Obviously these things are hyper complicated, I can't even see how anyone could plan them, and entailed interservice rivalries that could be effective.  IN reality, D-Day went pretty well.  The British were slow getting to Caen.  The airborne troops were widely dispersed, but to some extent that aided in baffling the Germans.

The Navy really did good work at Omaha, especially the destroyers who risked grounding to come in close.  The heavy bombers missed their targets by several miles.

Once Omaha was secured, it was a success, even if everything didn't go perfectly, which could never happen.

It is plausible that even if the Allies were down to only Utah Beach, they would have secured the peninsula quickly and then plodded at great cost up to Avranches, and then they would break out, and perhaps that meant a delay of perhaps 1-2 months, not sure.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2019, 10:30:58 AM »
Churchill was an infantry combat veteran of WWI.  He resigned as First Lord of the Admiralty after his Galipoli brainchild turned into a disaster, and joined the army.

He feared the slaughter of the young men of Great Britain.  And he could't get the disaster of the Dieppe Raid out of his head.  He just didn't want his young men to have to attack the Germans head-on.
That's why Montgomery's plan for Operation Market-Garden was so appealing to him.
Churchill's Galipoli catastrophe is not well known in the US, but if you ever travel to New Zealand, they remember it quite well.  A LOT of the troops killed in that mess were ANZAC's (Austrailians and New Zealanders). 

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2019, 10:56:18 AM »
I should be able to visit Gallipoli next May on our trip.  

I think it was a sound strategy but the implementation was atrocious, really atrocious.


medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2019, 10:56:51 AM »
@Cincydawg quoted the mission history of the Nagasaki bombing above but I have long suspected that it is not accurate.  If you read closely, you will note that the bomb was WAY off target and if you read more about the mission you will learn that Bockscar was running low on fuel and could not have made it back to even Okinawa if they had lingered much longer, especially with the heavy Fat Man Bomb still on board.  Worse, it would have been extremely unsafe to attempt landing with the bomb on board and AFAIK they didn't have explicit permission to drop the thing over the ocean in the event of this problem. 

Consequently, I have long suspected that the Bockscar crew (or just the bombardier) simply dropped it by radar without visual confirmation and that is why it ended up about 2mi away from the intended aiming point.  My theory is that either:
A)  The crew simply decided to ignore the order to get visual confirmation, dropped the bomb by radar, and agreed among themselves not to ever tell anyone, or
B)  The bombardier got increasingly optimistic as fuel got increasingly scarce and simply thought he saw the aiming point even though he actually didn't. 

Note that the Nagasaki bomb was considerably more powerful (21kt vs 16kt) and yet did less damage and killed less people because they botched the aim. 

Side note:
I visited the Trinity site a few years ago (it is open to the public two days a year so check and plan ahead if you want to go).  The Hiroshima bomb was, as someone above noted, untested.  That was because it was a simpler design. 

I'm not a physicist so I don't know this stuff very well but my limited understanding is roughly this:
In order to achieve a nuclear detonation you need to compress fissile material.  The Hiroshima Bomb was a "gun type" bomb.  It achieved this compression by essentially shooting a uranium bullet into a Uranium mass.  This was fairly simple (to the geniuses that designed the bombs) so they didn't feel a need to test it.  The Nagasaki Bomb was an implosion bomb.  It was cylindrical and there were a bunch of conventional shaped charges surrounding the fissile core.  Blowing up the shaped charges created the compression.  They tested it first because if anything went wrong with the charges (ie, if they were not spaced correctly) the fissile material would simply blow out one side instead of detonating. 

The decision not to test the gun type bomb was risky and that is why they did test the other one.  If the bomb had failed to detonate the Japanese would have found it and known exactly what we were up to.  Worse, they would have acquired our fissile material. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2019, 11:06:18 AM »
Many of the amphibious landings of note in WW II did "go bad" to an extent, all of them had flaws. 
In WWII, the worst one may have been Tarawa.  It was early in the advance against Japan so lots of ideas were still being tested and they somehow screwed up the calculation of the tides and ended up with a near-disaster. 

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2019, 11:07:18 AM »
Your description of the two warhead types is accurate.  The challenge with the implosion technique is to ensure all the charges fire at the same time, as you imply.  The design also was based on plutonium, which is used in the most efficient devices today (not uranium).  Plutonium is an artificial element that was generated in the reactors at Hanford, Oregon, and one reason that area is rather polluted.

The US had enough fissile material for a third bomb, but a fourth would be delayed while more was generated.  The U-235 in the first type was separated from U-238 at Oak Ridge using long tubes that separated gases by weight, they used UF6 which is highly corrosive but gaseous.  The first trickle out would be enriched in U-235.  (gaseous diffusion process).  The B-29 Bockscar is at the AF Museum in Dayton, OH (which is an incredible museum).

The book Enola Gay is quite excellent in my view.


Cincydawg

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2019, 11:08:52 AM »
The Marines today in basic training have to pass a swimming test in part because of Tarawa.  It's not that tough to pass the basic test but some recruits can't swim.  If you pass the 4th class, you can try for 3rd and so on, I understand the 1st class is quite difficult.  My daughter says she was the first female recruit in over a year to pass it.


Cincydawg

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2019, 11:11:34 AM »
Anyway, I'm pondering the Allied advance through the bocage if the only beachead was Utah.  The British around Caen soaked up the German armor because it was open country, the bocage would been mostly infantry and antitank battles and artillery, not armor, I think.  The Germans might have been able to move a 2-3 panzer divisions to the East, or they could have held them in reserve against any allied breakout.  As it was, the German 7th Army got chewed up in the Falaise Pocket.

My guess here, and CWS can chime in since we're guessing, is that the Allies might have needed another 2 months to break out.

SFBadger96

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2019, 12:40:10 PM »
What bothers me about our military now is how detached we approach it.  Obviously, no one wants "boots on the ground" and risking unneeded deaths, but when you hear coverage, it bothers me that the cost of the war is so front and center. 
Who gives a damn about that? 
we're not the same country that transformed automotive assembly lines into tank-creation factories.  We consider war to be an inconvenience now.  That detachment is what doesn't sit well with me. 
It's still 20 year olds out there on the front lines.  It's still old men calling the shots, still politicians keeping their kids on the sidelines - same as always.  But the attitude we have as a whole is just problematic.
While I--and probably most who served or are family of those who have--largely agree, there is a bright side to this. One reason we're detached is because we haven't needed to mobilize in this way since Vietnam. Even Vietnam was a provincial war (in scope) relative to WWII. The reality is that we live in a very peaceful time in the history of humanity, which is remarkable given how many more of us (people) there are now, and how much better we are (mechanically/scientifically) at killing each other.

And for all of that, the impact of war on those who fight it, and those close to them, doesn't change.

For my own part, serving in the military exposed me to a broader cross-section of America than anything else I've done, and that gave me a better appreciation for who we are as a nation. Despite all our differences--and the tropes from war movies about farm boys from Iowa, factory workers from the Midwest, good ol' boys from the South, and city kids getting blended together have some truth to them--we are quite capable of setting aside our differences to get things done.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2019, 12:46:46 PM »
Another item mentioned by someone is operation Anvil, the invasion that followed in southern France.  That likely would have occurred and faced little resistance unless you think the Germans could have reoriented some troops in that direction.  Those troops basically had a route march hampered only by supply limitations.  So, if the D-Day invasion is somehow hemmed up, the Med invasion would cause the Germans great difficulty as they tried to reorient, and the new foes would be coming up through what starts to be good tank country.

That was a good point whoever posted it.

MrNubbz

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2019, 01:08:50 PM »
Wasn't that originally named dragoon.Churchill oppossed it saying we would get dragooned into it.IKE pointed out that neither him or the BEF were involved with operations.It was a Franco-yank operation.I'll tell you what I've spent the last year reading about 15 books all on the European theater and Monty should have been shot and if he survived shot again.He was really a shameless lying self promoting distortion artist.Even other BEF officers wanted him removed but by the time the drunk Winnie fired half of his officers he pretty much got stuck with him.That and Alan brooke was his buddy.I liked and admired Churchill but was not a tactitician or should  not have been as involved as he was in military matters
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2019, 01:10:59 PM »
Operation Dragoon (initially Operation Anvil) was the code name for the Allied invasion of Southern France on 15 August 1944. The operation was initially planned to be executed in conjunction with Operation Overlord, the Allied landing in the Normandy, but the lack of available resources led to a cancellation of the second landing. By July 1944 the landing was reconsidered, as the clogged-up ports in Normandy did not have the capacity to adequately supply the Allied forces. Concurrently, the French High Command pushed for a revival of the operation that would include large numbers of French troops. As a result, the operation was finally approved in July to be executed in August.

MrNubbz

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2019, 01:15:15 PM »
The British around Caen soaked up the German armor because it was open country, the bocage would been mostly infantry and antitank battles and artillery, not armor, I think.
The germans were there because of the road network and the rivers.They already threw Monty in the chanel once so they weren't exactly crapping their pants because he was there.Allied Air Corp however had the Heine's attention as did Naval Shelling.Allied ground troops would disperse different colored smoke screens indicating friendly troops.Bradley still called in ordinance on his own troops once or twice
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 01:21:27 PM by MrNubbz »
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