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Topic: OT - D-Day, what if?
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Cincydawg · « **Reply #196 on:** July 18, 2019, 08:15:56 AM »

The Brits developed a cotton supply from Egypt more than India as I recall. The French were disposed to intervening but not without British concurrence.

The South couldn't afford many mistakes, and they made them, much as Hitler had a nice run but couldn't afford many mistakes and made them.

Imagine a scenario wherein Hitler reinforces Afrika Corps seriously and holds off on Barbarossa a year but manages to take Egypt and then the middle east and its oil. He wanted that for Benito of course. That would have netted him more than going after Russia.

As we've discussed before, Lee without Jackson arguably was a pedestrian general in many respects. He could read his opponent perhaps. He knew them well mostly. But Jackson gave him the hammer while Longstreet gave him the anvil. Jackson at Gettysburg might have changed things.

It's interesting that GB found Churchill and the Union found Lincoln when few others could have managed what they did.

CWSooner · « **Reply #197 on:** July 18, 2019, 08:30:34 AM »

You're right, CD. The Brits did get cotton from India, but their big increase in cotton production was in Egypt.

CWSooner · « **Reply #198 on:** July 18, 2019, 10:27:18 PM »

"History Buffs"' review of the movie Gettysburg.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ1f9vliwiA

The movie is based on the novel The Killer Angels, and it copies some of the book's historical liberties, as well as having some of its own making. But it's still pretty good.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #199 on:** July 19, 2019, 07:43:43 AM »

A movie like that gets some interested. It wasn't as bad historically as Battle of the Bulge with Henry Fonda.

I never understood why they changed so much in that movie, it's not even very similar to history.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #200 on:** July 19, 2019, 08:16:49 AM »

I was surprised when I visited how gentle the grade is up Cemetery Ridge. It's not much of a ridge, A few rounds of round shot could have take down the fences.

I don't know how much the tree cover has changed on LRT and Culps' Hills.

medinabuckeye1 · « **Reply #201 on:** July 19, 2019, 08:31:52 AM »

Quote from: CWSooner on July 18, 2019, 08:09:43 AM

There's just nothing like an army that is almost good enough to win or a strategy that is almost good enough to work.

Back to the Civil War, I forgot to mention that the Confederacy had maladroit diplomacy. It tried to use cotton as a weapon rather than as a lure. Right off the bat, Jefferson Davis proclaimed an embargo on cotton to Europe to try to force Britain and France to recognize Confederate independence under the threat of not getting any more cotton if they did not comply. Confederate diplomats in Britain and France un-diplomatically drove this point home.

I'm much less tuned into French national character, but as for the Brits, they don't like to be bullied. It didn't work for the Confederacy in 1861-62, and it didn't work for the Germans in 1939-40.

Fortunately for the future of American civilization, the Brits had bought a bumper crop of cotton in 1860, so there was a bit of a surplus in 1861. Also, Britain had the capability of expanding cotton production in India to make up the difference. By 1863, the Brits could do without Southern cotton, and they did.

British aristocrats liked the Confederacy's feudal social order, but the ordinary British people hated slavery, and they were starting to gain increasing political power. The elites could not safely support recognition and support of the Confederacy. The French would have recognized the Confederacy had the Brits done so, but not by themselves.

The South's cotton embargo has to rank as one of the biggest foreign policy blunders in history. The rest of that dubious top-10 probably belongs to Germany.

It was just a catastrophic failure. For one thing, the South needed foreign currency and supplies. For another, without their embargo the European powers would have been more inclined to side with the "free trade / neutral shipping" south.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #202 on:** July 19, 2019, 08:48:43 AM »

They thought their cotton was King. Remember they had very limited access to what was happening in the cotton market in Europe.

I understand cotton was grown around these parts back then. The soil (clay) is incredibly infertile. It's good for pine trees and kudzu and fortunately dogwoods and azaleas.

The Piedmont here is used for grazing and growing chickens and not much else today. I have sat in a chair with a beer and watched kudzu grow around my foot, starting to, a tendril had grabbed me and the vine was growing. I managed an escape at the last second.

I always thought quicksand would be more of a hazard in adult life.

MrNubbz · « **Reply #203 on:** July 19, 2019, 03:15:04 PM »

Quote from: CWSooner on July 15, 2019, 07:34:52 PM

Our faithful ally Stalin was also feeding info on us and the Brits to Japan prior to his declaration of war on Japan after Hiroshima.

Didn't know this,what did the creep do?

MrNubbz · « **Reply #204 on:** July 19, 2019, 03:36:56 PM »

Quote from: Cincydawg on July 17, 2019, 12:01:33 PM

I think the Confederate "strategy" was to hold on and hope the North would quit. I concur with what you wrote above. (Had Jackson been at Gettysburg perhaps Lee would have been more adventurous.)

While Jackson was certainly bold/brave to the core,home field was thing during the late unpleasantness.During the battle of Fredericksburg Meade rolled up the left flank and Jackson didn't appear to do much.Burnside however being completely way in over his head didn't notice an opportunity when presented and failed to follow this up.Ordering assaults ad nauseam on Mary's Heights to right taking horrific casualties.Evidently at Gettysburg the Union had a whole other Corp not engaged - according to Shelby Foote.So it's uncertain what difference,if any Jackson in the end would make there

CWSooner · « **Reply #205 on:** July 20, 2019, 01:07:20 AM »

Oh, it's certainly one of the more historically accurate historical movies. It presents a reasonable interpretation of the big picture, and has some interesting vignettes.

Longstreet's remonstrance to Lee about how no 15,000 men he's ever seen could take Cemetery Ridge is based on Longstreet's memoirs, which he wrote after Lee's death, and after he himself had become a pariah amongst his former colleagues for becoming a pro-Reconstruction Republican, while they were all promoting the "Lost Cause" mythology and damning him as a traitor and--very much ex post facto--the reason for the defeat at Gettysburg. He had reason to make himself look good, maybe a little better than the facts warranted.

I don't think it presents Buford's fight early on Day 1 very clearly. But, then, neither does Michael Shaara's book.

Still, it's far better than most.

Battle of the Bulge is one big steaming pile of crap.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #206 on:** July 20, 2019, 07:01:57 AM »

A thing I learned when reading Guderian's book was how personal history's usually are designed to make the author look good. He even was in cahoots with Lidell Hart in all of this.

The Battle of the Bulge deserves a good movie. I visited the southern part of that battlefield. It's not at all like I thought it would be, not many trees, but obviously the land has been cleared substantially for ag. I'd like to go back, but I was already pushing it with the patient wife. That trip we visited Belleau Wood, the Maginot Line, several museums near Bastogne, Waterloo, Normandy, and the Musee des Blindes in Saumur.

We only had about 3 hours in Saumur, it was awesome. I dragged her back for most of a day later. Saumur is a nice city.

Now want to visit Bovington.

CWSooner · « **Reply #207 on:** July 20, 2019, 12:27:22 PM »

Quote from: Cincydawg on July 20, 2019, 07:01:57 AM

A thing I learned when reading Guderian's book was how personal history's usually are designed to make the author look good. He even was in cahoots with Lidell Hart in all of this.

The Battle of the Bulge deserves a good movie. I visited the southern part of that battlefield. It's not at all like I thought it would be, not many trees, but obviously the land has been cleared substantially for ag. I'd like to go back, but I was already pushing it with the patient wife. That trip we visited Belleau Wood, the Maginot Line, several museums near Bastogne, Waterloo, Normandy, and the Musee des Blindes in Saumur.

We only had about 3 hours in Saumur, it was awesome. I dragged her back for most of a day later. Saumur is a nice city.

Now want to visit Bovington.

Yep. Even a mea culpa tends to be self-interested. "See how willing I am to criticize myself?"
I saw a recent video on Belleau Wood and it seemed like the woods were still pretty dense.
IIRC, Waterloo's terrain was significantly altered to create the memorial there.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #208 on:** July 20, 2019, 01:01:40 PM »

Belleau Wood is impressive. The woods are very dense, but much of the area now of course is a cemetery, with two very tall flag poles flying a larrge flags other than the Tricolour, though it has three colors. It is out of the way, not easy to find. There is an impressive memorial building on a hill overlooking Chateau Thierry but it is for WW One and French-American cooperation. The Germans let it stand in 1940-1944. It is separated by 3 miles or so from the cemetery.

We climbed the pyramid at Waterloo which has the advantage of seeing the battlefield, but did change the terrain significantly. The wooded parts seemed well preserved, it was about like what I expected. I can see how the rains the previous night would have rendered the lower areas muddy.

CWSooner · « **Reply #209 on:** July 20, 2019, 03:10:11 PM »

Quote from: Cincydawg on July 19, 2019, 08:16:49 AM

I was surprised when I visited how gentle the grade is up Cemetery Ridge. It's not much of a ridge, A few rounds of round shot could have take down the fences.

I don't know how much the tree cover has changed on LRT and Culps' Hills.

It's been 21 years since the last time I was at Gettysburg, but at that time LRT was much more heavily wooded than it was in 1863 when it had been logged pretty extensively. Culp's Hill was heavily wooded in 1998 also. I can't remember whether it was supposed to have been that way in 1863 or not.

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Topic: OT - D-Day, what if?

Cincydawg

Re: OT - D-Day, what if?

CWSooner

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CWSooner

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Cincydawg

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Cincydawg

Re: OT - D-Day, what if?

medinabuckeye1

Re: OT - D-Day, what if?

Cincydawg

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MrNubbz

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MrNubbz

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CWSooner

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Cincydawg

Re: OT - D-Day, what if?

CWSooner

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Cincydawg

Re: OT - D-Day, what if?

CWSooner

Re: OT - D-Day, what if?