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Topic: OT - D-Day, what if?

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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #182 on: July 17, 2019, 12:01:33 PM »
I think the Confederate "strategy" was to hold on and hope the North would quit.  I concur with what you wrote above.  (Had Jackson been at Gettysburg perhaps Lee would have been more adventurous.)  Vicksburg of course fell at the same time.

But, imagine even in late summer 1864 had Sherman botched his campaign.    Maybe Joe Johnston turns Atlanta into Petersburg and the election comes and McClellan is elected.  Maybe.  Perhaps Atlanta was the decisive point.  

We have a painting around these parts that once showed it as a Confederate victory.

https://www.atlantahistorycenter.com/explore/exhibitions/cyclorama-the-big-picture

So many DYs moved down heah that now it doesn't.

Southern history can be a bit peculiar.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #183 on: July 17, 2019, 12:14:24 PM »
I wonder why the Confederate artillery didn't load up some solid shot and knock down those fences.  I doubt it would make much difference.

The Age of the Rifle made frontal charges pretty much idiotic.  Malvern Hill should have been a lesson.

JerseyTerrapin

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #184 on: July 17, 2019, 12:31:12 PM »
I'm late to this party, but great thread!

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #185 on: July 17, 2019, 12:42:11 PM »
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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #186 on: July 17, 2019, 03:27:17 PM »
If the June 6th invasion had failed the allies would have re-grouped and done over.  Also, Germany would have been the target of the first A-bombs starting in July 1945.  However many needed.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #187 on: July 17, 2019, 03:37:04 PM »
How do you say "Fat Boy" in German?
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #188 on: July 17, 2019, 03:49:48 PM »

fetter Junge




Cincydawg

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #189 on: July 17, 2019, 03:50:11 PM »
There weren't too many targets left in Germany by 1945.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #190 on: July 17, 2019, 04:56:49 PM »
I think the Confederate "strategy" was to hold on and hope the North would quit.  I concur with what you wrote above.  (Had Jackson been at Gettysburg perhaps Lee would have been more adventurous.)  Vicksburg of course fell at the same time.

But, imagine even in late summer 1864 had Sherman botched his campaign.    Maybe Joe Johnston turns Atlanta into Petersburg and the election comes and McClellan is elected.  Maybe.  Perhaps Atlanta was the decisive point. 

We have a painting around these parts that once showed it as a Confederate victory.

https://www.atlantahistorycenter.com/explore/exhibitions/cyclorama-the-big-picture

So many DYs moved down heah that now it doesn't.

Southern history can be a bit peculiar.
I think you are right and really the weaker power only has two basic strategies available:
  • Make the war costly enough for your stronger adversary that they eventually quit, or
  • Win fast, before your adversary's productive capacity advantage can be fully put to use.  

My thinking is that strategy #2 is only available for a limited time so the weaker power should employ it from the get-go then switch to #1 if they have to.  That is pretty much what the Japanese did in WWII.  The Confederates basically started out with strategy #1 then tried to switch to strategy #2 but it was too late by the time they switched.  In hindsight they probably should have spent 1861 and 1862 on all-out offensives to demoralize their stronger adversary while they still had a good chance to achieve victories on Northern soil.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #191 on: July 17, 2019, 04:57:11 PM »
If the June 6th invasion had failed the allies would have re-grouped and done over.  Also, Germany would have been the target of the first A-bombs starting in July 1945.  However many needed.
That is pretty much exactly my thinking on the matter.  

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #192 on: July 17, 2019, 05:04:20 PM »
Lee did invade Maryland in 1862 of course.  It didn't really work, but it caused problems for the Union army as well, though it finally got rid of McClellan, who by all accounts could have ended things in September.

I bet if you asked most Americans who the Union general in charge at Gettysburg was a few would say Grant and the rest would have no clue what anything meant.


CWSooner

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #193 on: July 17, 2019, 09:26:42 PM »
The Confederacy in 1861 was stronger relative to the Union than the 13 Colonies in 1775 or the 13 Free and Independent States in 1776 were relative to Great Britain.

But George Washington, who initially sought a decisive battle, soon realized that he didn't have either the muscle or the tactical skill to win such a battle.  So he kept the Continental Army intact, struck where he could, as at Trenton and Princeton at the turn of 1776-77, and awaited foreign assistance, which the Continental Congress was working on with France and Spain.  And eventually he wore the British down, and they quit.

I think too many Southerners (for their own good, that is) assumed that, because they were stronger relative to their enemy than the Patriots had been, they could win independence by decisive victories on the battlefield.  They won victories in 1861-62, in the East, but warfare had changed since the Revolutionary War.  The introduction of the rifle-musket changed things the most.  It made battles more expensive, and made it harder for the attacker to win, because he couldn't get through the 200-300-foot-deep killing zone as nearly as quickly as RevWar soldiers could get through the 50-foot-deep killing zone of their war.  Also, better antipersonnel ammo was developed for the artillery, and it could employ it for that entire killing zone as well.  So the attacker, even when victorious, generally took much heavier casualties than the defender.  Lee in particular won victories, but they were victories that the South could not afford.  Antietam (Sep 1862) was the clearest example.  It was a tactical victory, of sorts, but a decisive strategic defeat.

The Confederacy's official strategy, to the extent that it had one, was to defend its perimeter.  A defense in depth would have been wise, because the Confederacy was huge and could theoretically trade a lot of space for time--time in which the northern public might tire of the war.  But no state was willing to have its space traded for time, especially not the border states, who would be the first to suffer.  So the Confederacy tried to defend its perimeter and succeeded more or less in the East at doing so.  But the West was where the Confederacy would lose the war.  Under the overall leadership of Albert Sidney Johnston, it invaded "neutral" Kentucky, inviting a response by the Union in superior force.  Kentucky was lost, so Johnston next tried to hold Tennessee.  His defeat at Shiloh killed both him and his chances, although it would be a long time before Union forces would control most of Tennessee.  By the end of 1862, Grant was beginning what would become his brilliant Vicksburg campaign, which would culminate on 4 July 1863 with the fall of the "Gibraltar of the Mississippi," cutting the Confederacy in two.

Jefferson Davis wanted to detach major elements of Lee's Army of Northern Virginia to assist in the defense of the Vicksburg region, but Lee convinced him that it would be better for him to launch a second invasion of the North and win a big battle on northern soil, fatten his horses on Yankee fodder, and bring home weapons, equipment, food, and escaped slaves.  Instead he was defeated at Gettysburg.  After that, all the Confederacy could hope for was that a Democrat would win the presidency in 1864.

Gettysburg has been called "the price the Confederacy paid for Robert E. Lee."

The northern public was very war-weary in 1864, and Grant's expensive (in blood) Overland Campaign was heavily (and wrongly, IMO) criticized.  Lincoln thought he might not even be renominated, much less re-elected, and told his key subordinates that they would have to win the war by March of 1865, because the incoming Democrat would have been elected on a platform of ending the war at any price.

But Sherman captured Atlanta, northern morale surged, Lincoln won re-election decisively, and the rest is history.
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #194 on: July 18, 2019, 06:52:35 AM »
The North was more persistent  than one might have expected, probably because of the man at the top.  As you note, the power had shifted to the defensive side, something not appreciated for a long time, even perhaps into 1915.  Rifling really changed the calculus.  

Wellington is one of my favorite generals to study in India as well as in Portugal and Spain because of his acute understanding of tactics and strategy and his opponent's strengths and weaknesses.  He also was "left alone" by higher command for obvious reasons.  He did a lot with very little.

I have visited a lot of villages and small towns in France and in every one is a memorial listing all who died in WW One (mostly).  The length of the lists is astonishing.  A village of 300 people or so can have 75 men listed as killed, not wounded, killed (many died of illness of course).  The French had two ideas come 1940:

1.  Fight this war in Belgium, not France, and 
2.  Let the Germans attack and we'll mow them down.

With the Maginot Line being basically impenetrable, it was almost an excellent strategy.

CWSooner

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #195 on: July 18, 2019, 08:09:43 AM »
There's just nothing like an army that is almost good enough to win or a strategy that is almost good enough to work.

Back to the Civil War, I forgot to mention that the Confederacy had maladroit diplomacy.  It tried to use cotton as a weapon rather than as a lure.  Right off the bat, Jefferson Davis proclaimed an embargo on cotton to Europe to try to force Britain and France to recognize Confederate independence under the threat of not getting any more cotton if they did not comply.  Confederate diplomats in Britain and France un-diplomatically drove this point home.

I'm much less tuned into French national character, but as for the Brits, they don't like to be bullied.  It didn't work for the Confederacy in 1861-62, and it didn't work for the Germans in 1939-40.

Fortunately for the future of American civilization, the Brits had bought a bumper crop of cotton in 1860, so there was a bit of a surplus in 1861.  Also, Britain had the capability of expanding cotton production in India to make up the difference.  By 1863, the Brits could do without Southern cotton, and they did.

British aristocrats liked the Confederacy's feudal social order, but the ordinary British people hated slavery, and they were starting to gain increasing political power.  The elites could not safely support recognition and support of the Confederacy.  The French would have recognized the Confederacy had the Brits done so, but not by themselves.
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