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Topic: OT - D-Day, what if?

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medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #168 on: July 15, 2019, 04:12:33 PM »
Going back to the OP and addressing the underlying question, I think @CWSooner will agree with me that everything that happened after roughly May of 1943 had no real impact on the final outcome of the war.  Events after January of 1943 still obviously impacted WHEN it ended but not how. 

To REALLY oversimplify, you can break WWII into three segments of roughly:

  • Up to approximately May, 1942 was a nearly unbroken string of Axis victories with only a few temporary set-backs, "ties" or inconclusive (at the time) fights. 
  • Approximately June, 1942 through May, 1943 was somewhat more fluid with Axis victories here and Allied victories there
  • June, 1943 through the end of the war was a nearly unbroken string of Allied victories with only a few "ties" or temporary set-backs for the allied side. 


The three biggest events (in order of importance) that either caused or marked the changing tide were:
  • Stalingrad:  The Germans lost 300k-400k German soldiers in the Stalingrad campaign along with about that number of other Axis troops (114k Italians, ~125k Romanians, ~125k Hungarians). 
  • The end of Axis operations in North Africa:  The Germans lost 130k captured along with ~20k killed or wounded in North Africa and it was worse for the Italians, a LOT worse. 
  • Midway:  The Japanese lost four carriers. 

The two German defeats are inherently more important than the Japanese defeat for the same reason that FDR and Churchill agreed upon a "Europe First" general strategy:  Because the Japanese did not have enough Industrial capacity to be a serious long-term threat. 

The Germans and their Italian, Romanian, and Hungarian allies simply could NOT absorb losses on the scale of those suffered at Stalingrad and in North Africa.  Stalingrad ended with Paulus' surrender on January 31, 1943 and the North Africa Campaign ended with the surrender of Axis forces in Tunisa on May 13, 1943.  Midway ended with Yamamoto ordering the remaining Japanese Naval forces in the area to head home on June 5/6, 1942. 

Once those three campaigns had ended the Axis powers stood no plausible chance of winning.  They simply couldn't absorb losses in those quantities and continue to face the Allies on anything like equal terms. 

Thus, by the time D-Day happened on June 6, 1944 there was almost no chance of a complete and catastrophic failure.  As was noted upthread, the US had a terrible time at Omaha but the other four landings went more-or-less according to plan.  Catastrophic failure at all five could only possibly have been caused by what insurance adjusters (but not @OrangeAfroMan ) would refer to as an act of god.  It simply wasn't within the capability of the Axis troops to actually toss the invaders back into the Channel. 


betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #169 on: July 15, 2019, 04:50:54 PM »
For a long time I wondered if hating the Jews was something that Hitler and the Nazi hierarchy actually believed or just a convenient form of scapegoating. 

Having read a LOT of history, I've come to the conclusion that it was a deeply held belief and not merely a propaganda tool.  The main thing that led me to this conclusion is that the holocaust didn't really get cranked up until well into WWII.  The Wannsee Conference didn't occur until January 20, 1942 and the really industrial killing was mostly done in 1944.  By that time it should have been obvious to everyone involved that Germany's military situation was, to put it mildly, precarious.  The fact that they continued, throughout 1944 and even into 1945, to devote massive transportation infrastructure to the project strongly suggests to me that they REALLY believed.  If it had just been a propaganda tool they could have accomplished just as much with a few radio broadcasts and used the train cars to transport the camp guards to the front line as soldiers.  They didn't. 
Like @OrangeAfroMan I just have a hard time understanding it. What could drive ANYONE to such a hatred of a different religion, or a different race, or etc, in order to desire to actually exterminate them from the planet? 

But the sad thing is that I think a lot of us look at history and say "I can't believe *they* did that", while not realizing that it all still exists. There's something truly dark within humanity, the idea to divide ourselves based upon arbitrary tribes and treat anyone outside of our own tribe as evil, dehumanize them, and consider them as expendable to the human race. 

I don't think OAM was saying that he thought it wasn't a sincere hatred. More that this level of hatred is utterly incomprehensible and irrational, yet it existed and continues to exist. 

We're just not wired to get along, IMHO, and that realization is one of the most deeply existentially depressing pieces of knowledge that I've ever carried.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #170 on: July 15, 2019, 05:32:49 PM »
Many Germans accepted the "stab in the back" idea at the end of WW One.  Germany was not being invaded when that ended.  Germans felt like somehow the army just quit one day, and they had to blame someone.  Germans viewed their military as indomitable.  These feelings were inflamed by the economic crises that came to past.  Hitler obviously pushed "the Jews did it to us" and many Germans figured he must know something.  And he was a capable orator, able to repeat simple concepts with a lot of passion.  Humans are prone to tribalism and rejection of other.

Had the Germans prevailed in WW One, they probably would have retained Alsace and Lorraine and their African colonies and made the French pay reparations, perhaps raw materials, and expanded into what is Poland today.  The world would have been very very different.


medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #171 on: July 15, 2019, 05:36:20 PM »
Like @OrangeAfroMan I just have a hard time understanding it. What could drive ANYONE to such a hatred of a different religion, or a different race, or etc, in order to desire to actually exterminate them from the planet?

But the sad thing is that I think a lot of us look at history and say "I can't believe *they* did that", while not realizing that it all still exists. There's something truly dark within humanity, the idea to divide ourselves based upon arbitrary tribes and treat anyone outside of our own tribe as evil, dehumanize them, and consider them as expendable to the human race.

I don't think OAM was saying that he thought it wasn't a sincere hatred. More that this level of hatred is utterly incomprehensible and irrational, yet it existed and continues to exist.

We're just not wired to get along, IMHO, and that realization is one of the most deeply existentially depressing pieces of knowledge that I've ever carried.
FWIW:  I didn't mean to single out OAM, I was just responding to his comment.  It has been a serious debate among historical scholars as to whether hating the Jews was a political convenience or a deeply held belief among the NAZI hierarchy.  As my post above indicates I fall firmly in the "it was a deeply held belief" camp because it is impossible to me to explain the massive diversion of resources into killing Jews in 1944 if it was only a Political convenience.  

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #172 on: July 15, 2019, 05:39:32 PM »
I think there was a theoretical chance of a German armistice with Stalin circa 1943.  Stalin didn't think the Allies were pulling their load very well.  Had Hitler been willing to take "half a loaf", he might have snagged a good bit of Ukraine and Byelorussia in return for a cease fire.  Maybe.

That might have been his last chance.  Manstein wanted to develop a mobile defense, but he was fired.  Kursk might not have happened and the Germans could possibly have caused so many casualties that even Stalin would call a halt.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #173 on: July 15, 2019, 05:51:20 PM »
Many Germans accepted the "stab in the back" idea at the end of WW One.  Germany was not being invaded when that ended.  Germans felt like somehow the army just quit one day, and they had to blame someone.  Germans viewed their military as indomitable.  These feelings were inflamed by the economic crises that came to past.  Hitler obviously pushed "the Jews did it to us" and many Germans figured he must know something.  And he was a capable orator, able to repeat simple concepts with a lot of passion.  Humans are prone to tribalism and rejection of other.

Had the Germans prevailed in WW One, they probably would have retained Alsace and Lorraine and their African colonies and made the French pay reparations, perhaps raw materials, and expanded into what is Poland today.  The world would have been very very different.
As I mentioned somewhere upthread, WWI what-ifs are far more interesting to me because I find them much more plausible / realistic.  

I really think that the Central Powers could have prevailed in WWI in a number of different ways, for example:
  • If they hadn't pulled an entire army out of Northern France to defend East Prussia from a threat that turned out to be wildly exaggerated.  
  • If the Germans had chosen not to invade neutral Belgium and Luxembourg it is entirely possible that the British would have stayed out of the war.  As it was, the British got involved because they were a guarantor of Belgian neutrality.  Perhaps if the Germans had respected that they could have kept it as simply a Continental War in which they would have been much more likely to prevail.  
  • If the Central Powers generally had learned from the ending stages of the American Civil War (fought about 50 years earlier) and based on the inventions in the interim that there was a massive advantage to the defender.  Ie, machine guns, landmines, and barbed wire had substantially increased the number of troops needed to attack.  Viewed in reverse, these technological advances had substantially decreased the number of troops necessary to defend.  Had any power fully realized this, they could have defended vast portions of front line with a limited number of well-equipped dug in troops and used all of their other manpower to build up a MASSIVE numerical advantage at the point-of-attack of their choosing.  Ie, as it turned out the Germans had at least twice as many troops as they needed to defend facing the French.  The other half (or more) of those troops should have been allocated to the northern attack wing.  The French could have done the same thing in reverse.  
  • If the Germans had been even modestly successful at diplomacy they could have at least delayed the entry of the US into the war by another six months or a year and that might have been long enough for the French Army to collapse.  
  • When the Germans introduced gas warfare they did it on a small scale at first and by the time it was used on a large scale both sides were doing it and both sides had developed and deployed countermeasures.  If they had introduced gas warfare in a massive attack it might have ruptured the Allied line and allowed for a major advance.  Interestingly the British made the same mistake when they introduced tanks.  Their first tank advances didn't have enough tanks to make a major breech in the German line.  Had they introduced them in mass quantities they might have ended the war sooner.  

I'm sure there are others, but IMHO, these are all more plausible than any potential Axis strategy to win WWII.  


medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #174 on: July 15, 2019, 05:54:46 PM »
I think there was a theoretical chance of a German armistice with Stalin circa 1943.  Stalin didn't think the Allies were pulling their load very well.  Had Hitler been willing to take "half a loaf", he might have snagged a good bit of Ukraine and Byelorussia in return for a cease fire.  Maybe.

That might have been his last chance.  Manstein wanted to develop a mobile defense, but he was fired.  Kursk might not have happened and the Germans could possibly have caused so many casualties that even Stalin would call a halt.
In 1943, I don't think so.  You are right that Stalin didn't think the Western Allies were pulling their load, but some of that was simply projecting.  I've read that Stalin's pre-Barbarossa plan was to wait until the Nazis and the Western Powers had been sufficiently weakened and then jump in as a powerful peacemaker.  Post-Barbarossa he always seemed to think that FDR/Churchill were doing the same thing in reverse.  

That said, I believe that the chance for a separate Nazi/USSR peace died at Stalingrad.  After that the Russians could have won without much help and they weren't realistically going to quit before they won.  

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #175 on: July 15, 2019, 06:05:09 PM »
Many Germans accepted the "stab in the back" idea at the end of WW One.  Germany was not being invaded when that ended.  Germans felt like somehow the army just quit one day, and they had to blame someone.  


This is an underrated issue among human beings, and it rears its head in a multitude of ways.
We need someone to blame for this bad thing happening, let's pick a group we're already not fond of and/or a group no one else is especially fond of.
This issue is why we attacked Iraq after 9/11.  If you're honest with yourself, you know this to be true.
This issue is why self-driving cars aren't a thing yet.  We'd rather have 10,000 deaths and someone to blame than 100 deaths with no one to really blame.
This issue is why many believe in a creator - those who share the phrase "well what else could it be?"
This issue is why the tree limb scratching at the window or the spooky shadows or the other things from our imaginations, with no practical previous evidence for it, are always out to get us.  
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #176 on: July 15, 2019, 06:41:05 PM »
Had Manstein been left in charge in the East, he MIGHT have been able to "hold the line" and make Russian losses so severe the army would have collapse.  He worked some miracles after Stalingrad and apparently Hitler was so shocked he let Manstein do his thing, which involved of course strategic retreats and mobile defense.

CWSooner

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #177 on: July 15, 2019, 07:32:27 PM »
Yeah, Sherman's army was mostly farmers and workers from the west and very used to the outdoors.  This could be a reason the North did better faster in the west than in Virginia.
As it turned out, the better Union generals were out west too.
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CWSooner

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #178 on: July 15, 2019, 07:34:52 PM »
In 1943, I don't think so.  You are right that Stalin didn't think the Western Allies were pulling their load, but some of that was simply projecting.  I've read that Stalin's pre-Barbarossa plan was to wait until the Nazis and the Western Powers had been sufficiently weakened and then jump in as a powerful peacemaker.  Post-Barbarossa he always seemed to think that FDR/Churchill were doing the same thing in reverse. 

That said, I believe that the chance for a separate Nazi/USSR peace died at Stalingrad.  After that the Russians could have won without much help and they weren't realistically going to quit before they won.
Our faithful ally Stalin was also feeding info on us and the Brits to Japan prior to his declaration of war on Japan after Hiroshima.
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CWSooner

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #179 on: July 15, 2019, 07:36:35 PM »
Something we tend to do is forget about contingency.  I think my posts upthread probably shorted that factor.  Even when things are highly likely, other possibilities are still, well, possible.
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #180 on: July 16, 2019, 07:35:31 AM »
As it turned out, the better Union generals were out west too.

Coupled with inferior Confed generals aside from Forrest.  I know Lee made a lot of mistakes but he was a very motivational leader, which counts some.  Jackson was asleep I guess during the Seven Days but otherwise he was unpredictable but often paired up with political generals on the other side.

The Nazis were a bit like the South, neither could afford any major mistakes.  And mistakes are inevitable in warfare.  

Peleliu strikes me as a mistake in the Pacific, I still don't understand why that was not called off.  That took 1st MarDiv off the map for Iwo Kima.

It wasn't a crucial mistake of course and didn't matter except to the casualty lists.  The number of ships the US turned out, and crews, in the Pacific by 1944 defies belief really.  Training all those men had to have been extremely challenging.  I guess they got basic training and then were trained on board later for their jobs.

Was an Armistice ever possible mid-1943 with Stalin and Hitler?  Obviously not for Hitler, but MAYBE for Stalin.  He was always paranoid about his generals becoming famous.

My premise is Manstein left in charge and no Kursk, not offensives, but tactical defensive reposts to Soviet offenses.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - D-Day, what if?
« Reply #181 on: July 17, 2019, 11:42:34 AM »
Coupled with inferior Confed generals aside from Forrest.  I know Lee made a lot of mistakes but he was a very motivational leader, which counts some.  Jackson was asleep I guess during the Seven Days but otherwise he was unpredictable but often paired up with political generals on the other side.

The Nazis were a bit like the South, neither could afford any major mistakes.  And mistakes are inevitable in warfare. 
The overall strategy of the Southern States in the Civil War has never made sense to me.  It was mentioned upthread that when the war began William Tecumseh Sherman was serving as the first superintendent of the Louisiana State Seminary of Learning and Military Academy which would eventually become LSU.  This was his statement to a Professor who was a close friend and an enthusiastic secessionist:
"You people of the South don't know what you are doing. This country will be drenched in blood, and God only knows how it will end. It is all folly, madness, a crime against civilization! You people speak so lightly of war; you don't know what you're talking about. War is a terrible thing! You mistake, too, the people of the North. They are a peaceable people but an earnest people, and they will fight, too. They are not going to let this country be destroyed without a mighty effort to save it... Besides, where are your men and appliances of war to contend against them? The North can make a steam engine, locomotive, or railway car; hardly a yard of cloth or pair of shoes can you make. You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical, and determined people on Earth—right at your doors. You are bound to fail. Only in your spirit and determination are you prepared for war. In all else you are totally unprepared, with a bad cause to start with. At first you will make headway, but as your limited resources begin to fail, shut out from the markets of Europe as you will be, your cause will begin to wane. If your people will but stop and think, they must see in the end that you will surely fail."

The Confederacy's situation in 1861 was somewhat similar to Japan's eighty years later in 1941.  They had substantial military establishments at least comparable to the United States but a smaller population and productive capacity only a small fraction of the adversary they were facing.  

At least Japan had the right idea.  They knew that they had to act quickly and take as much territory from the US as possible before the US' massive advantage in productive capacity could be brought to bear.  On a macro-strategic level the Southern States should have done the same thing.  Their best chance was in 1861 and it was predetermined from the beginning that their chances would get worse in 1862, then get worse again in 1863, then get even worse in 1864, then continue to get worse in 1865 and beyond.  

Gettysburg is, I think, a good example of this.  Over the years many people have criticized Lee's decision to send Pickett, Pettigrew, and Trimble charging against the Union Line.  Most of Lee's subordinates opposed the attack.  Post war, General Longstreet claimed to have told General Lee that "I have been a soldier all my life.  I have been with soldiers engaged in fights by couples, by squads, companies, regiments, divisions, and armies, and should know, as well as any one, what soldiers can do.  It is my opinion that not fifteen thousand men ever arrayed for battle can take that position."  

What became known to history as Pickett's Charge was tactically moronic.  As an aside, Pickett himself hated that name because he was against the idea as well and, of course, it was a catastrophe.  However, if you give Lee the benefit of the doubt, it may have been a sound strategic decision. 

On a macro-strategic level, by 1863 the Union's massive advantage in productive capacity was having a major effect.  I think Lee knew that July 3, 1863 was simply as good as it was going to get for his side.  If Pickett's Charge had been successful and the Union Army had been thoroughly routed at Gettysburg there might have been a chance for the Southern States to secure a negotiated settlement particularly if they had followed up that victory by sacking Harrisburg (just 40 mi away and PA's capitol) or threatening Washington (~70 mi away) or Baltimore (~50 mi away).  

Obviously Lee knew that his forces were weaker than the Union Army but I think he also knew that the disparity would be worse for him in 1864 and he simply decided that July 3, 1863 was likely to be a better day to try to win the war than any subsequent day would be.  

 

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