header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: On football, what we don't know about it, and why that doesn't matter

 (Read 2171 times)

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18857
  • Liked:
Re: On football, what we don't know about it, and why that doesn't matter
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2020, 08:02:03 PM »
When I coached HS on the rez, we'd meet as coaches and I'd be noting all of these things we could play off of and break tendencies, etc and it was all for naught.  We weren't there yet and likely never get there.  

Kids playing both ways who didn't grow up watching football and are just doing it for something to do until basketball season made it pretty limited.  I'm sure most every coach from big HS and up has a ton of info/ideas/plans in his back pocket, but if the players don't have the wherewithal to handle them, it becomes irrelevant.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Kris60

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 2514
  • Liked:
Re: On football, what we don't know about it, and why that doesn't matter
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2020, 09:03:09 PM »
I used to watch Edge NFL matchup from time to time. Jaws would spend 10 minutes breaking down why a 15 yard pass worked.

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18857
  • Liked:
Re: On football, what we don't know about it, and why that doesn't matter
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2020, 10:16:46 PM »
That's why football actually is a good corollary to war.  It's not as important or anything, but everyone is assigned a physical chore and you're only successful if everyone does their job.

Just on a screen pass, you have linemen initially blocking for just the right amount of time before releasing to get out and upfield, a QB often having to drop a pass over D-linemen to a RB who had to mimic some other play before receiving the ball...and THEN the footballing happens.  Linemen have to just bum-rush defenders and smother them or at least get their head across, the RB has to read those blocks and sometimes speed past his blockers, if there's heat from behind.  WRs this whole time start out by seeing how far they can trick DBs into following them downfield, before turning into blockers themselves - a skill they're not practicing all that much.  

"We're dealing with a lot of shit here" - Bull Durham
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

CWSooner

  • Team Captain
  • *******
  • Posts: 6049
  • Liked:
Re: On football, what we don't know about it, and why that doesn't matter
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2020, 10:50:40 PM »
Football might be a good corollary to a war game, like the force-on-force training that goes on at the Army's National Training Center in California, but not to war itself.

War is Hell.  War is cruelty.  War is not sporting.  War is pulling your hand out of a bunch of goo that used to be your buddy's face.  War is looking at your guts spill out of your belly as you slowly die.

Football is a game.
Play Like a Champion Today

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18857
  • Liked:
Re: On football, what we don't know about it, and why that doesn't matter
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2020, 11:35:55 PM »
We all know that.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

CWSooner

  • Team Captain
  • *******
  • Posts: 6049
  • Liked:
Re: On football, what we don't know about it, and why that doesn't matter
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2020, 12:46:31 AM »
Of course we do.  We all do.

That's why you said that football is a good corollary to war.
Play Like a Champion Today

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71566
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: On football, what we don't know about it, and why that doesn't matter
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2020, 06:25:48 AM »
American war is more akin to bringing massive firepower down on suspected enemy.  That has no corollary to football really where both sides are limited by rules, even if Alabama is playing Charleston Southern.

What's amazing really is how in American wars, Charleston Southern often prevails.

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37546
  • Liked:
Re: On football, what we don't know about it, and why that doesn't matter
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2020, 12:30:10 PM »
I used to watch Edge NFL matchup from time to time. Jaws would spend 10 minutes breaking down why a 15 yard pass worked.
me too
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71566
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: On football, what we don't know about it, and why that doesn't matter
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2020, 01:59:44 PM »
I never caught that show.  I recall seeing Fromm come up to the line and look over the defense, which to me nearly always looked like every defensive set the other team had all day excepting  extreme downs.  Fromm would give hand and verbal signals.  Maybe he was calling off blocking assignments to the OL.  Hand signals may have simply directed the back to run left or right.

I dunno, the defense looked like a standard set to me, usually.  Obviously, if you see the safety creeping up, there's a sign.


bayareabadger

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 7864
  • Liked:
Re: On football, what we don't know about it, and why that doesn't matter
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2020, 02:22:35 PM »
I never caught that show.  I recall seeing Fromm come up to the line and look over the defense, which to me nearly always looked like every defensive set the other team had all day excepting  extreme downs.  Fromm would give hand and verbal signals.  Maybe he was calling off blocking assignments to the OL.  Hand signals may have simply directed the back to run left or right.

I dunno, the defense looked like a standard set to me, usually.  Obviously, if you see the safety creeping up, there's a sign.


I mean, there's all sorts of minutia. Are inside defenders on inside or outside shoulders or certain linemen? If the formation shaded to the tight end? Does a team go with one-high safety pre/post snap?

Shoot, big chunks of things come down to which side of a blocker a defender can get his head on. 

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71566
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: On football, what we don't know about it, and why that doesn't matter
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2020, 03:03:26 PM »
Yeah, with the TV sideline angle, I can't tell how they are lined up, but it looks the same play after play other than 3rd and long or short.  I also wonder if a defense is shading right a bit and the QB calls an audible, they should shift left a bit as the clock runs down.  I know they do this on occasion.

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37546
  • Liked:
Re: On football, what we don't know about it, and why that doesn't matter
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2020, 03:34:37 PM »
if a defense is disguising their play, the formation should look the same every time

if the safety is creeping up, is it a decoy or a real blitz?

sometimes this can be seen from watching film of blitzes, by noticing if the 3 other D-backs are moving to cover for the blitzer

can the safety look off the QB and bait a pass? to attempt an INT?

all good stuff

"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

SFBadger96

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 1243
  • Liked:
Re: On football, what we don't know about it, and why that doesn't matter
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2020, 05:54:14 PM »
When I coached HS on the rez, we'd meet as coaches and I'd be noting all of these things we could play off of and break tendencies, etc and it was all for naught.  We weren't there yet and likely never get there. 

Kids playing both ways who didn't grow up watching football and are just doing it for something to do until basketball season made it pretty limited.  I'm sure most every coach from big HS and up has a ton of info/ideas/plans in his back pocket, but if the players don't have the wherewithal to handle them, it becomes irrelevant.
You can not do tactically, what you cannot do technically.

I think every coach, everywhere, at every level probably struggles with this. But in youth sports, it's king.

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12199
  • Liked:
Re: On football, what we don't know about it, and why that doesn't matter
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2020, 06:23:41 PM »
You can not do tactically, what you cannot do technically.

I think every coach, everywhere, at every level probably struggles with this. But in youth sports, it's king.
This is what pissed me off about John Shoop's tenure as Purdue's OC.

Maybe he's an offensive genius. Maybe his schemes are world-beating. But he never had enough practice time for players to make it automatic muscle memory, so it always seemed to be a bunch of smoke and mirrors over bad execution.

Then I watch the Air Raid guys who install their offense in 3 days. Guys like Leach who only teach [most] WRs their route trees from one side of the formation, because he doesn't want to confuse them. They understand that scheme is important, but you can only make a scheme as complex as the ability to execute.

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.