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Topic: NCAA

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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: NCAA
« Reply #182 on: February 12, 2024, 08:48:37 PM »
I don't think that you'd put an 8-4 USC team into the CFP over an 11-1 Iowa team, no.

But I think you'd not hesitate one bit to consider that Iowa team unworthy, to gloat when they get stomped in a CFP game, and to refer to the outcome with disgust, as you often do in these arguments with responses like "Ew" and "Gross".

I mean, doesn't this very reply above suggest that despite TCU actually winning a damn game, you view them as unworthy and don't think they should have been there at all?

  • TCU: "Ew. Gross"
  • Mid-majors: "Ew. Gross."
  • 13-0 FSU who had lost their QB: "Ew. Gross."
  • 2015 MSU who gets stomped: "Ew. Gross."

Who doesn't get your ire? The elite of the elite shiny helmet teams. Particularly if they're in the SEC.  The teams that win.  The teams that are double-digit favorites vs teams who had a great season, but not so much when context is taken into account.


The point is that it's all "eye test". And your "eye test" is going to be more dominated by talent/recruiting, which is dominated by helmet team status, which is another way of saying that if a non-elite team ever even gets into the playoff: "Ew. Gross."

Yeah, you might not take a team with STARZ who finished 8-4 and let them in. But that doesn't mean you ever want to see a team without STARZ because you think they just don't belong.
It's not about helmet at all.  It's about talent, sure, but I actually care little about talent if it doesn't DO anything. 
Individual players often are held in high esteem due to their "talent" - a la 40 time, ht/wt, peak performances....but who cares what his 40 time is if he averages 3.9 ypc???  Roger Staubach is worshipped as an all-time great, thanks to being a good scrambler (ie - Vince Young) and having a great season.  No one mentions his follow-up season of putrid trash.

Same with teams.
Everyone worships 2001 Miami for all it's talent, but would the best team ever have a late scare @ unranked BC or a 2-point win vs VT?  Maybe that was the most talented team ever, but if so, why was it at-risk of losing twice to non-elite teams?

2022 TCU had a great season with a nice, shiny record.  And that's where my opinion of them is supposed to stop?  Fuck that.  You're saying I'm Captain Eye Test for the crime of looking deeper.  Sorry/not sorry.  5 one-possession wins, none against great teams.  Then the CCG loss. 
News flash:  that's not a great team. Based on what they did.  Not helmet.  Not even eye test.  Simply based on what happened on the field. 
I haven't once mentioned how their preseason ranking of 7th by the Big XII media suggested limited talent on the roster.  BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE TO.  That's not what it's about.  It's about looking deeper than W/L record.  Oh, the humanity!!!

"Mid-Majors:  Ew, gross" - again, this is simple and not the bastardized version in your head.  Look at G5 results vs P5 programs.  Done.
No, no G5 "deserves" any playoff spot, inclusion, or anything else of the sort.  They have not earned it.  Their schedules, collectively, are shit.  End of story.  Getting up for a 1-off big-time game is obviously easier than numerous landmines spaced throughout the season.

And something you didn't cite, but that I'm found guilty of in the court of herd mentality is that I'm not a slave to h2h.  Ooops!  There I go again, being crazy. 
Except that many seem to hold h2h above the other 11 games.  THAT'S crazy.  In every (yes, every) single example of elite teams playing, the winner automatically has a worse loss.  They may have the better win (in the game in question), but they BY DEFAULT have the worse loss.  So when people say h2h should determine things when all else is equal.....ehhh, they're never really equal.  Every 11-1 is different, some radically so.  But it's quick-n-easy to look at the same record, shrug, and assume it's all equal.
It's lazy. 

The people who do this are lazy.  All of it.  They're tasked with a job and are lazy at it.  Not that they don't watch lots of football (which they happen to enjoy) or talk a lot about it (which they happen to enjoy).  But they're lazy mentally.  They form a lazy consensus and nod together, and say "job well done."

It's embarrassing.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: NCAA
« Reply #183 on: February 12, 2024, 09:02:27 PM »
2022 TCU bothers me so much because of how the committee shrugged as if they had no choice.
What a lie.
First of all, the reason TCU didn't fall from 3rd to 4th was simply to avoid a semi-final rematch.
That's a bullshit reason. 
When you set up a system in which teams that have already played are both making a playoff, you live with it.  That's on you.  Don't want rematches?  Don't implement a system that guarantees them.

Secondly, because the next 3 teams behind OSU didn't have a 1 in the loss column, they were automatically eliminated as candidates.
WHAT?
Alabama had (gasp) 2 losses by a combined 4 points on the road against 2 top 15 teams.  Are we SURE their resume couldn't compete with TCU's??? (notice how this is performance-based and has nothing to do with it being Bama?!?  WOW!)
Tennessee beat Bama, but those 2 losses disqualified them from maybeeee getting in over TCU?  A loss @ the #1 team.  Damning, for sure.  How dare they.  And they got destroyed @ Carolina for some reason.  Bad loss.  Terrible loss.  But they beat Bama.  Beat LSU.  Beat Kentucky.  I guess they aren't 8-5 Texas or 6-7 OU. (note:  the SEC ended with 6 ranked teams....XII ended with 3, on of which was #25)
And here's the reason this bothers me so much:  if it was Week 8 of the season, TCU's ass would have dropped 5-6 spots, but since it's the last poll, they stand pat at 3rd and their conference championship game didn't even need to be played.  The outcome altered nothing.

THAT is broken. 
« Last Edit: February 12, 2024, 09:07:53 PM by OrangeAfroMan »
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: NCAA
« Reply #184 on: February 12, 2024, 09:24:53 PM »
alpha beta really got fro going. 

MaximumSam

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Re: NCAA
« Reply #185 on: February 12, 2024, 09:25:01 PM »
The problem is trying to make the games matter. Putting teams that lost and didn't have a better record than TCU and didn't win their conference means you are just sort of waving away the actual results of games in favor of your imagination. There is no getting around that. It's just part of the system.

FearlessF

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Re: NCAA
« Reply #186 on: February 12, 2024, 09:38:36 PM »

First of all, the reason TCU didn't fall from 3rd to 4th was simply to avoid a semi-final rematch.
That's a bullshit reason. 

Ed Zachery
I have zero problems with rematches
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: NCAA
« Reply #187 on: February 12, 2024, 09:46:10 PM »
The problem is trying to make the games matter. Putting teams that lost and didn't have a better record than TCU and didn't win their conference means you are just sort of waving away the actual results of games in favor of your imagination. There is no getting around that. It's just part of the system.
Then make the 2022 Big XII Championship game matter.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

FearlessF

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Re: NCAA
« Reply #188 on: February 12, 2024, 10:08:18 PM »
2022 Big XII Champion K-State
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: NCAA
« Reply #189 on: February 12, 2024, 11:53:26 PM »
It seems people like to pretend being a conference champ matters for playoff inclusion.
TCU wasn't the champions of squat.  And they STILL didn't move down 1 spot.  

They should not have even played the game.  Why did they bother keeping score?
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

MaximumSam

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Re: NCAA
« Reply #190 on: February 13, 2024, 06:08:23 AM »
It seems people like to pretend being a conference champ matters for playoff inclusion.
TCU wasn't the champions of squat.  And they STILL didn't move down 1 spot. 

They should not have even played the game.  Why did they bother keeping score?
There was no one to move them under

Cincydawg

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Re: NCAA
« Reply #191 on: February 13, 2024, 07:38:53 AM »
Thngs have to be viewed in context.  Had there been a "team in waiting" when TCU lost, it would have mattered.  This past season, there were several (TIWs), so UGA dropped hard.  Who should have replaced TCU?  That is the question.

FearlessF

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Re: NCAA
« Reply #192 on: February 13, 2024, 08:11:25 AM »
leme see...... since being a conference champ didn't matter

Bama, Tennessee, Ohio St., Penn State, and/or Washington

take your pick, all with more impressive results on the field of play than TCU
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

MaximumSam

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Re: NCAA
« Reply #193 on: February 13, 2024, 08:27:33 AM »
leme see...... since being a conference champ didn't matter

Bama, Tennessee, Ohio St., Penn State, and/or Washington

take your pick, all with more impressive results on the field of play than TCU
Bama and TCU had a game in common - at Texas. Bammer won by 1, TCU by 7. Bama also didn't win their division.

Tenneseee got beat by double digits by Georgia and blown out by...South Carolina. 

Ohio State made the field, but didn't win their division.

Penn State lost by double digits to the two ranked teams they played.

Washington lost twice, one to a team that went 3-9.

Not sure what is impressive about any of that.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: NCAA
« Reply #194 on: February 13, 2024, 09:58:18 AM »
Not sure what is impressive about any of that.
The helmet sure is shinier. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: NCAA
« Reply #195 on: February 13, 2024, 12:26:43 PM »
Rankings have to hinge on context, who else is available?  In some years, UGA could, and did,  lose in the CG and make it, but not last year.  TCU lost but there was not clear alternative that season.
I noticed that @Cincydawg (UGA fan) and I (Ohio State fan) aren't too upset about missing the 2023 playoff.  I was thinking about it and it is worth mentioning that a BIG part of the reason for this is that we root for teams that made multiple CFP appearances in the 10-year run of the 4-team CFP and that won at least one NC.  

For fans like @Cincydawg and I it isn't difficult to accept it because it is reasonable to believe that our teams will be back.  They might miss the CFP at 12-1 one year but they might make it at 11-1 another so it all kinda balances out.  

It is different if you are a fan of TCU or Baylor.  

Thinking about that, here are Ohio State's 10 teams of the 4-team CFP era sorted by how strong I think their "case" was to make the playoff:
  • 13-0 B1G Champ in 2019, impressive SoS:  MADE CFP, lost semi-final on the last play.  
  • 6-0 B1G Champ in 2020, no losses but no really great wins either in the abbreviated COVID season:  MADE CFP, won semi-final, lost CG.  
  • 11-1 in 2023, lost on the road to eventual NC by six:  Did NOT make CFP.  
  • 11-1 in 2016, lost on he road by a FG to B1G Champ:  MADE CFP.  
  • 11-1 in 2015, lost at home by a FG to B1G Champ:  Did NOT make CFP.  
  • 11-1 in 2022, lost at home to CFP participant by 22:  MADE CFP.  
  • 12-1 B1G Champ in 2014, lost at home to mediocre VaTech by two TD's:  MADE CFP, won NC.  
  • 12-1 B1G Champ in 2018, lost badly on the road to mediocre Purdue:  Did NOT make CFP.  
  • 11-2 B1G Champ in 2017, lost by 15 at home to CFP team and badly on the road to mediocre Iowa:  Did NOT make CFP.  
  • 10-2 in 2021, lost at home to PAC Contender by a TD and on the road to CFP team by 15:  Did NOT make CFP.  

The five teams that made the CFP are in Bold.  

 

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