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Topic: A Sub Below

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medinabuckeye1

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Re: A Sub Below
« Reply #56 on: June 23, 2023, 09:33:00 AM »
This could be interesting.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/titanic-subs-deadly-implosion-draws-investigation-d47398d3?st=nscwfko2q1eu4ix&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
https://www.wsj.com/articles/titanic-subs-deadly-implosion-draws-investigation-d47398d3?st=nscwfko2q1eu4ix&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
From the article:
"Mauger said the vessel’s implosion would have been loud enough for sonar buoys to pick up, but no such sound was detected."

Mauger is "Rear Adm. John Mauger, who has been leading the search".

The paragraph above is basically what I had been thinking all along. I actually thought that it had NOT imploded because I knew that an implosion would make noise that *SHOULD* have been heard. I thus assumed (wrongly) that if it had imploded, we would have been told.

"A top secret U.S. Navy acoustic detection system designed to spot enemy submarines first heard the Titan sub implosion hours after the submersible began its mission, [color=var(--interactive-text-color)]The Wall Street Journal reported Thursday[/color], citing officials involved in the search."

This paragraph is crazy. First, it is immediately preceeded by the prior quote and more-or-less directly contradicts it. Second, reporting about a "top secret U.S. Navy acoustic detection system" seems to be an oxymoron because it isn't top secret once it is reported.

They imply in the article that carbon fiber may not be a good material for submarines. They don't go into detail but it sounds like it does not handle the repeated stress as well as very high grade steel or titanium.

The thing I don't understand is that carbon fiber is known for being very light but weight doesn't seem like a major design issue for a Submarine so why bother?

For @betarhoalphadelta , @OrangeAfroMan and everyone else questioning our interest in Titanic:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-the-titanic-keeps-drawing-us-in-f75bf9fa?cx_testId=3&cx_testVariant=cx_170&cx_artPos=6&mod=WTRN#cxrecs_s
https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-the-titanic-keeps-drawing-us-in-f75bf9fa?cx_testId=3&cx_testVariant=cx_170&cx_artPos=6&mod=WTRN#cxrecs_s

Cincydawg

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Re: A Sub Below
« Reply #57 on: June 23, 2023, 09:54:50 AM »
The term "sonar buoy" is different from the SOSUS (and other) detection devices.  The SOSUS detectors located the Thresher back in the day.  

66 Years of Undersea Surveillance | Naval History Magazine - February 2021 Volume 35, Number 1 (usni.org)

I don't know much about carbon fiber characteristics beyond light weight and good tensile strength.  Common polymers do poorly under repeated stress/strain situations (fatigue).  Our subs all use steel hulls, so far as I know.  




Gigem

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Re: A Sub Below
« Reply #58 on: June 23, 2023, 10:18:46 AM »
SOSUS has been a thing for the US for a long, long time.  I don't think it's existence is top secret, it's capabilities are.  After all, it did detect he soviet sub that went down back in the 70's, and they knew where it went down and tried to bring it back up, and partially succeeded.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: A Sub Below
« Reply #59 on: June 23, 2023, 11:09:54 AM »
SOSUS has been a thing for the US for a long, long time.  I don't think it's existence is top secret, it's capabilities are.  After all, it did detect he soviet sub that went down back in the 70's, and they knew where it went down and tried to bring it back up, and partially succeeded.
The term "sonar buoy" is different from the SOSUS (and other) detection devices.  The SOSUS detectors located the Thresher back in the day. 

66 Years of Undersea Surveillance | Naval History Magazine - February 2021 Volume 35, Number 1 (usni.org)

I don't know much about carbon fiber characteristics beyond light weight and good tensile strength.  Common polymers do poorly under repeated stress/strain situations (fatigue).  Our subs all use steel hulls, so far as I know.
Also of note and related to the comments above:
The initial mission by Dr. Ballard that found Titanic back in 1985 was actually a cover story for CIA financed search for a Soviet sub.

I attended a speech by Dr. Ballard in about 2002 with my dad. Ballard also found Bismark and his book on that was fascinating:

https://www.amazon.com/Discovery-Bismarck-Germanys-Battleship-Surrenders/dp/0446513865/?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_w=whGZV&content-id=amzn1.sym.a6902a35-db15-41bc-b73e-8acb54939e9e&pf_rd_p=a6902a35-db15-41bc-b73e-8acb54939e9e&pf_rd_r=145-8193100-9561929&pd_rd_wg=8VHC0&pd_rd_r=082695a5-86f0-4799-ac36-e45c351122b8&ref_=aufs_ap_sc_dsk

The most interesting part of Ballard's speech, however, was that they had found perfectly preserved Roman-era ships in the dead sea. In the dead sea the salinity is so great and the oxygen so minimal that almost nothing lives so the wrecks are basically unchanged since they sank more than two millenia ago.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: A Sub Below
« Reply #60 on: June 23, 2023, 11:33:44 AM »
I don't know much about carbon fiber characteristics beyond light weight and good tensile strength.  Common polymers do poorly under repeated stress/strain situations (fatigue).  Our subs all use steel hulls, so far as I know. 
This sub did make numerous prior trips to the Titanic wreck site so maybe the Carbon Fiber weakened from repeated contraction/expansion and eventually could no longer withstand the immense pressure so it imploded.

MaximumSam

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Re: A Sub Below
« Reply #61 on: June 23, 2023, 11:34:34 AM »

Quote
They imply in the article that carbon fiber may not be a good material for submarines. They don't go into detail but it sounds like it does not handle the repeated stress as well as very high grade steel or titanium.
I've read a couple things where the ship was made of carbon fiber and titanium, which violated what other people thought would work because they corrode each other? He was very proud of making it work, but... That's not a topic I know anything about, but it is interesting.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: A Sub Below
« Reply #62 on: June 23, 2023, 11:38:07 AM »
I've read a couple things where the ship was made of carbon fiber and titanium, which violated what other people thought would work because they corrode each other? He was very proud of making it work, but... That's not a topic I know anything about, but it is interesting.
I hadn't heard the corrosion issue (does Carbon Fiber corrode?) but I had heard it mentioned that one difficulty with multiple materials is that they contract at different rates under pressure. That can cause issues because parts that match up exactly at the surface may not match up once you are 12,000 ft down facing 6,000 psi.

Cincydawg

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Re: A Sub Below
« Reply #63 on: June 23, 2023, 11:42:46 AM »
Carbon fiber is basically linear graphite, it can't corrode.  Titanium is very corrosion resistant.  

Could the two together do an anode/cathode thing?  Maybe.


Cincydawg

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Re: A Sub Below
« Reply #64 on: June 23, 2023, 11:47:41 AM »
I copied this:

Fatigue is a concept in metallurgy with a very specific meaning. It is degradation of the crystalline structure of a metal. A metal object or material's fatigue limit is the amount of load it can sustain before any of this effect occurs. Some metals like aluminum technically have no fatigue limit, so the loaded areas have to be designed to give good lifespan regardless. The structural metal objects all around us (bikes, buildings, planes, cars) are designed, repaired, maintained, and/or retired and replaced to work around the fatigue properties of the material.
Carbon fiber isn't a metal and doesn't have a metal-like crystalline structure, so the metallurgical concept of fatigue doesn't apply. When its internal structure is degraded from load in any way, it's broken. It simply relies on its extremely high strength to keep that from happening. When it's momentarily very heavily loaded to the cusp of what it can sustain structurally, but doesn't break, it's fine and can do that forever. (Someone that designs or inspects carbon wings or whatever might have some more to say about that, but it's the basic principle).
Note that there's kind of a linguistic tug-of-war involved with the term fatigue as it applies to carbon fiber bikes. Fatigue by the metallurgical definition is an important consideration in the care and feeding of metal bikes and parts, which is to say most of them in the world, and so cyclists and mechanics might be grounded in the metallurgical definition and bristle at drawing an analog with the durability considerations involved with carbon fiber, because it's important to understand about carbon fiber that it plays by a different set of rules. So in that sense, using the term there is or can be argued as wrong. You can use it to try to suggest an analogous relationship with metal fatigue, but in carbon fiber's case of living in a strong broken/not-broken binary, there really isn't much of an analog. But with some other materials there might be more of an analog and suddenly it doesn't look as wrong or useless to borrow the term, and some people might be in the habit of doing that, or otherwise not care about what metallurgists have to say about the word.


MrNubbz

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Re: A Sub Below
« Reply #65 on: June 23, 2023, 12:12:41 PM »
if a tree falls in the forest ...
and there's no one there to hear it....
Does it hit the pope dropping a duece?
"Let us endeavor so to live - that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

Drew4UTk

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Re: A Sub Below
« Reply #66 on: June 23, 2023, 01:36:42 PM »
It's not only the capacity to hear things that makes that array secret... the part that is highly guarded is the database of sounds- each having a signature that immediately registers its most likely source. 

An implosion of something mechanical, no matter the interfering noises, would be known immediately.

There is a peculiar place near me that is highly restricted- doesn't show on Google earth or maps... its a facility for the express purpose of diagnostics and signatures of things that blow up... its called Harvey point, and resides in Hyde County on the "inner banks" which is to say the Albemarle sound.  All kinds of activity happens there from blowing up commercial planes various ways and recording the signature of placement and charge/explosive, to deep sea operations of the same flavor.  This is how "they" know immediately "how" something happened- if it was foul play or accidental.  The same thing applies to sea going vessels.... they "hear" it and they know a lot about it immediately.  Size, displacement, location, type of event, and then cross referenced to known or calculated "things". 

That data is what's secured.  How they hear it is well known and duplicated by anyone who cares to go out there and collect information about the hardware.

edit: pardon me, the Pamlico Sound. 
« Last Edit: June 23, 2023, 02:00:18 PM by Drew4UTk »

Cincydawg

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Re: A Sub Below
« Reply #67 on: June 23, 2023, 02:26:06 PM »
The book "Hunt for Red October" is actually a pretty good overview of the navy's sound detection capabilities and tactics.  Not the movie, the book.

longhorn320

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Re: A Sub Below
« Reply #68 on: June 23, 2023, 02:43:35 PM »
The book "Hunt for Red October" is actually a pretty good overview of the navy's sound detection capabilities and tactics.  Not the movie, the book.
Clancy was known for the amount of research he put into a book
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Gigem

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Re: A Sub Below
« Reply #69 on: June 23, 2023, 03:13:32 PM »
Clancy was known for the amount of research he put into a book
I've read quite a few of his books, and yes the research really stands out.  They say that he had access to semi-secret stuff, as long as he agreed to not show the full capabilities.  Apparently Reagan was a huge fan, and fed his knowledge base.  I think HFRO was before he had access, the later novels he knew a lot of stuff.  

 

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