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Topic: Is Urby In Trouble Here?

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ELA

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Re: Is Urby In Trouble Here?
« Reply #896 on: August 23, 2018, 12:13:17 PM »
The alternative- having the NCAA govern this sort of issue- is far worse than accepting that there is a degree of ludicrousness to comparing it with bylaw infractions.

I think I fall more on this side.  The NCAA struggles enough to enforce their own bylaws, I'd rather they stay out of this.

Cincydawg

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Re: Is Urby In Trouble Here?
« Reply #897 on: August 23, 2018, 12:21:03 PM »
There is some controversy about whether Zach Smith committed domestic violence of late, from what I can discern.

The whole thing is rather confusing to me.  What is the official reason given by OSU for UM's punishment?

Is it about not reporting DV up the line?  Gene Smith knew about it apparently.

Cincydawg

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Re: Is Urby In Trouble Here?
« Reply #898 on: August 23, 2018, 12:22:43 PM »
The universities wanted to lay out as much common ground as possible to maintain competitiveness, much as NASCAR did with cars.

The devil is in the details.

And the details get detailed.

What is it most here think Meyer did wrong and got punished for?

Entropy

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Re: Is Urby In Trouble Here?
« Reply #899 on: August 23, 2018, 12:26:13 PM »
The alternative- having the NCAA govern this sort of issue- is far worse than accepting that there is a degree of ludicrousness to comparing it with bylaw infractions.

one alternative is to start over....  another is not to have an NCAA and just admit schools really don't care..  there really is more than one. 

FearlessF

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Re: Is Urby In Trouble Here?
« Reply #900 on: August 23, 2018, 12:30:08 PM »
The whole thing is rather confusing to me.  What is the official reason given by OSU for UM's punishment?

the press conference gave no answers to anything.  the University, the AD, and the head coach all admitted to making mistakes and not handling things properly.
but, they didn't give any details as to what they did wrong
so, really they admitted nothing.  It was a farce.
They tried to save face and failed miserably.  At least as miserably as they failed to handle employee Zach Smith.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

FearlessF

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Re: Is Urby In Trouble Here?
« Reply #901 on: August 23, 2018, 12:35:38 PM »
What is it most here think Meyer did wrong and got punished for?
Urban allowed the program and therefore the university to be cast in a very negative light in the national media.
Urban's actions and inaction regarding assistant coach Smith caused the program an ugly black eye 
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Anonymous Coward

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Re: Is Urby In Trouble Here?
« Reply #902 on: August 23, 2018, 01:00:52 PM »
What is the official reason given by OSU for UM's punishment?

Is it about not reporting DV up the line?  Gene Smith knew about it apparently.
Mary Jo White mentioned six-points of findings at the podium. Most of them were generous to Gene/Urban, but the errors were:
  • that they privately mulled over the 2015 allegations for months and neither went to Compliance
  • that Meyer was aware of some but not all of Zach's lewd behavior within the confines of OSU activities and always leant Zach a blind eye (not clear which Urban knew of from the list of sexual relationship with a subordinate, White House genitalia pics, etc.)
Not mentioned on the podium but in the document, there were also these:
  • At the recommendation and assistance of Brian Voltolini, his Director of Football Operations, it appears Urban destroyed evidence
  • Urban never told Gene about 2009. Also: Gene's background check (or other oversight over the years) never included asking about things Urban knew that Gene may not.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 01:11:51 PM by Anonymous Coward »

Anonymous Coward

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Re: Is Urby In Trouble Here?
« Reply #903 on: August 23, 2018, 01:06:33 PM »
I lean to thinking Meyer was on the verge of telling them to shove it, maybe he did and got talked out of that step.

Someone, his wife?, may have said "Give it time, don't make a rash decision."

He quit at Florida as I recall and then "unquit" before he quit again.  Maybe he recalls that step and didn't want to do it rashly, but perhaps after a week of contemplation, he weighs his duty to his team and his legacy and decides it's not worth it.  I don't know about his physical health.

The story isn't over.
Agreed. I think Urban probably mulled quitting. Frankly, the president may have as well. I think there's a fair chance that none of the three are there in August 2019. However, I think each of them are at least at 50/50 and that Drake is the most likely to stay.

Anonymous Coward

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Re: Is Urby In Trouble Here?
« Reply #904 on: August 23, 2018, 01:10:53 PM »
I think I fall more on this side.  The NCAA struggles enough to enforce their own bylaws, I'd rather they stay out of this.
Mgoblog wrote something today that I thought was nuanced/smart.
The crux was that out of revenue self-interest the NCAA has pushed the notion of "amateurism" at all costs. And that one of these costs is an environment in which perhaps every good player is getting some impermissible benefits under the table. Furthermore, it's clear that each program, at worst, considers this a joke or, at best, cares but after sending the boilerplate "don't do it" ultimately has to look the other way, or at least not stare too hard.
In other words, the NCAA is the central culprit of a culture of "see no evil, hear no evil" silence. That on its own doesn't really matter right? Because in a capitalistic society players trying to earn closer to their market value is not an illegal act, and (rule-breaking aside) not an ethical issue, either.
But what happens when these little sports enclaves with their cultures of silence brush up against true legal and unethical issues, like sexual abuse or domestic violence? Recent evidence, shows how ugly that mixture can be.
The answer to fixing this is to eliminate our cultures of silence. I'm persuaded that, HIGHLY INDIRECTLY, of course the NCAA is the largest force at fault.
My questions: Now that amateurism has brought us these cultures of silence, are they engrained, or can they go away if amateurism goes away? How long until we start over, without amateurism, perhaps without the NCAA?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 01:22:52 PM by Anonymous Coward »

Honestbuckeye

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Re: Is Urby In Trouble Here?
« Reply #905 on: August 23, 2018, 01:29:29 PM »
Mgoblog wrote something today that I thought was nuanced/smart.
The crux was that out of revenue self-interest the NCAA has pushed the notion of "amateurism" at all costs. And that one of these costs is an environment in which perhaps every good player is getting some impermissible benefits under the table. Furthermore, it's clear that each program, at worst, considers this a joke or, at best, cares but after sending the boilerplate "don't do it" ultimately has to look the other way, or at least not stare too hard.
In other words, the NCAA is the central culprit of a culture of "see no evil, hear no evil" silence. That on its own doesn't really matter right? Because in a capitalistic society players trying to earn closer to their market value is not an illegal act, and (rule-breaking aside) not an ethical issue, either.
But what happens when these little sports enclaves with their cultures of silence brush up against true legal and unethical issues, like sexual abuse or domestic violence? Recent evidence, shows how ugly that mixture can be.
The answer to fixing this is to eliminate our cultures of silence. I'm persuaded that, HIGHLY INDIRECTLY, of course the NCAA is the largest force at fault.
My questions: Now that amateurism has brought us these cultures of silence, are they engrained, or can they go away if amateurism goes away? How long until we start over, without amateurism, perhaps without the NCAA?
Well thought out.  I agree, especially the paragraph regarding what happens when these enclaves come up against societies bigger issues.  
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bayareabadger

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Re: Is Urby In Trouble Here?
« Reply #906 on: August 23, 2018, 01:36:48 PM »
I think I fall more on this side.  The NCAA struggles enough to enforce their own bylaws, I'd rather they stay out of this.
This. 
What it seems we’re talking about is three mostly separate worlds that sometimes interact:
-NCAA, which is aimed at enforcing amateurism, players’ rights, other piddling things.
-the legal world. Courts, lawyers, judges, actual laws
-The HR world, which would be an institutions’ own policies.
This whole mess is mostly about the third one, with a hint of the second. Zach Smith did a lot of stuff that would get most people fired, but could be explained away. Urban explaining it away could get someone fired in the right circumstance, but here it did not. A more solid legal footing of Smith's malfeasance or Urban’s inaction would’ve made things more clear, but there’s usually a lot of wiggle room.
(Obviously ELA knows this, but it’s a more general statement. I had a friend who got a drunk and disorderly when a friend was giving him a ride home, a car broke down and the cops were called to help. He kicked the cop as his drunk, wriggling self was being thrown into a squad car. Initial charge was assulting an officer. He could’ve been fired the next day, but was considered a strong employee, and wasn’t. Ended up pleading down, getting it off the record, don’t think it’s been an issue since. Life is weird)

rolltidefan

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Re: Is Urby In Trouble Here?
« Reply #907 on: August 23, 2018, 01:47:01 PM »
Mgoblog wrote something today that I thought was nuanced/smart.
The crux was that out of revenue self-interest the NCAA has pushed the notion of "amateurism" at all costs. And that one of these costs is an environment in which perhaps every good player is getting some impermissible benefits under the table. Furthermore, it's clear that each program, at worst, considers this a joke or, at best, cares but after sending the boilerplate "don't do it" ultimately has to look the other way, or at least not stare too hard.
In other words, the NCAA is the central culprit of a culture of "see no evil, hear no evil" silence. That on its own doesn't really matter right? Because in a capitalistic society players trying to earn closer to their market value is not an illegal act, and (rule-breaking aside) not an ethical issue, either.
But what happens when these little sports enclaves with their cultures of silence brush up against true legal and unethical issues, like sexual abuse or domestic violence? Recent evidence, shows how ugly that mixture can be.
The answer to fixing this is to eliminate our cultures of silence. I'm persuaded that, HIGHLY INDIRECTLY, of course the NCAA is the largest force at fault.
My questions: Now that amateurism has brought us these cultures of silence, are they engrained, or can they go away if amateurism goes away? How long until we start over, without amateurism, perhaps without the NCAA?
not that i disagree with anything said there, but this isn't isolated to cfb, fb, or even sports in general. multiple other sports, both amateur and professional, as well as the entertainment industry (movies, tv, music) have all had scandals of abuse (sexual and dv) pop up in the recent past.
so i'm not so sure it's just the ncaa culture of 'hush hush' paying players under table that's generated the "culture of silence". and i don't really have an answer for what IS generating it, but it's permeated more than just amateur athletics.

Anonymous Coward

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Re: Is Urby In Trouble Here?
« Reply #908 on: August 23, 2018, 01:55:43 PM »
not that i disagree with anything said there, but this isn't isolated to cfb, fb, or even sports in general. multiple other sports, both amateur and professional, as well as the entertainment industry (movies, tv, music) have all had scandals of abuse (sexual and dv) pop up in the recent past.
so i'm not so sure it's just the ncaa culture of 'hush hush' paying players under table that's generated the "culture of silence". and i don't really have an answer for what IS generating it, but it's permeated more than just amateur athletics.
That's fair. I crafted a post that accidentally argued that the NCAA is necessary and sufficient for this kind of culture of silence. You're right. A better argument is that it's not necessary, only sufficient. In other words, the NCAA is a strong exacerbator of something that is otherwise already a societal problem.
Why is it a wide societal problem? Good question. It may have something to do with the serially guilty so vigilantly avoiding a comeuppance ... and the many good people who do seldom crappy things feeling they exclusively deserve to be treated like good people and, therefore, recoiling at the idea of airing dirty laundry.
That probably compounds when people get together in groups and teams. And even moreso when those groups and teams are part of a system (NCAA) that passes down the original sin of hiding things that aren't even unethical or illegal.

Entropy

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Re: Is Urby In Trouble Here?
« Reply #909 on: August 23, 2018, 02:07:38 PM »
Mgoblog wrote something today that I thought was nuanced/smart.
The crux was that out of revenue self-interest the NCAA has pushed the notion of "amateurism" at all costs. And that one of these costs is an environment in which perhaps every good player is getting some impermissible benefits under the table. Furthermore, it's clear that each program, at worst, considers this a joke or, at best, cares but after sending the boilerplate "don't do it" ultimately has to look the other way, or at least not stare too hard.
In other words, the NCAA is the central culprit of a culture of "see no evil, hear no evil" silence. That on its own doesn't really matter right? Because in a capitalistic society players trying to earn closer to their market value is not an illegal act, and (rule-breaking aside) not an ethical issue, either.
But what happens when these little sports enclaves with their cultures of silence brush up against true legal and unethical issues, like sexual abuse or domestic violence? Recent evidence, shows how ugly that mixture can be.
The answer to fixing this is to eliminate our cultures of silence. I'm persuaded that, HIGHLY INDIRECTLY, of course the NCAA is the largest force at fault.
My questions: Now that amateurism has brought us these cultures of silence, are they engrained, or can they go away if amateurism goes away? How long until we start over, without amateurism, perhaps without the NCAA?
Thanks for sharing.
The responses I've received to my posts on this are what I expected...  Nobody disagreed with my suggestion that Pryor was punished harsher.  Rather, it was two different orgs or "it is what it is".  
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 02:12:28 PM by Entropy »

 

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