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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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Mdot21

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Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
« Reply #46620 on: July 08, 2025, 04:49:15 PM »
Some eat the blue pill, some eat the red pill.




utee94

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Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
« Reply #46621 on: July 08, 2025, 04:54:56 PM »
They're the same.  They're the same pill.

Mdot21

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Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
« Reply #46622 on: July 08, 2025, 05:02:00 PM »
They're the same.  They're the same pill.
well I don't know much about pills, only pills I take are oxycontin. 

847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
« Reply #46623 on: July 08, 2025, 05:05:58 PM »
Theirs or ours? :88:
249 years and counting.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
« Reply #46624 on: July 08, 2025, 05:06:30 PM »
They're the same.  They're the same pill.
Just with different RFK food byes.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
« Reply #46625 on: July 08, 2025, 05:29:34 PM »
Yes, that's why I advocated for fixing convoluted and possibly broken system and specifying a paradigm shift is needed. 

Shrugging and saying "this is how it's always been" is a great way to make sure it never changes.
We are talking past each other on this.  

@Cincydawg and I have taken your points seriously and addressed them.  

It isn't simply a matter of saying "that is how it's always been."  

Taxing "the rich" isn't easy and tends not to be terribly productive.  That isn't because we aren't doing it right and need a paradigm shift, it is because of the nature of the endeavor.  As laid out ad-nauseum above:
  • The very rich have a great deal of flexibility that even the "only" somewhat rich simply do not have.  If you are a VERY highly paid Doctor or Engineer, for example, and you make say $600,000 per year you don't have all that much flexibility.  Your income doesn't come from investments it comes from working for someone and when you get paid for that, you get taxed.  It is different for people who make say $20M/yr.  Outside of perhaps a few athletes and entertainers, nearly everyone making that kind of money is getting it almost all from investments.  They can switch to lower-tax investments.  They can also move.  The Doctor/Engineer is here because their patients/clients are here but someone with $400M in investments can go wherever they want.  
  • There isn't all that much money to be had no matter what you do.  According to Politifact (I do NOT vouch for this, just the first hit on a google search) confiscating literally all wealth over $1B would run the Federal Government for 263 days.  That may sound like a lot but it really isn't because confiscating all wealth over a set amount is obviously a one-time thing.  Apart from all the issues of enforcement, and practically putting this into effect, you can't repeat it.  So lets consider smaller steps.  If taking all of it would run the Government for 263 days then 10% would run the government for 26.3 days.  That literally wouldn't even close the deficit THIS year and that assumes that you could actually get it all.  A 1% wealth tax would be more practical but it would also run the Federal Government for only 2.63 days so it isn't enough money to be worth the mess.  
  • Tax Evasion / Tax Avoidance are major issues with people who can justify spending big money on extremely smart tax attorneys.  

Way back in 1992 Bill Clinton ran on a "Middle Class Tax" cut and said he'd only raise taxes on "the rich".  Then he got in office and jettisoned the "Middle Class Tax Cut".  At the time he said that he worked as hard as he had ever worked in his life and just couldn't figure out a way to do it.  That may seem confusing, it was back when officeholders at least tried to care about the deficit.  Anyway, as it turned out nearly everyone with a job was "rich" according to Clinton's campaign promises because nearly everyone with a job got hit with a tax increase.  

Clinton was either utterly incompetent or a liar and I think we all know which.  That said, his tax increase worked.  Federal Revenues were around 17% of GDP from 1986-1992 but they were about 19% of GDP from 1999-2001.  

Taxing "the rich" is a great sound-byte but if you want to actually raise an appreciable amount of money you either need to give it up or redefine "rich" as more-or-less anyone with a job.  

That said, I'll say again that our primary problem isn't on the revenue side.  The highest ever Federal Revenue as a percentage of GDP was 19.8% in 1945 and spending hasn't been below that since 2007.  Starting with the credit crunch recession in 2008 Federal Spending has gone completely out of control:
  • 20.2% in 2008
  • 24.3% in 2009
  • 23.0% in 2010
  • 23.1% in 2011
  • 21.7% in 2012
  • 20.5% in 2013
  • 19.9% in 2014
  • 20.2% in 2015
  • 20.5% in 2016
  • 20.3% in 2017
  • 19.9% in 2018
  • 20.6% in 2019
  • 30.7% in 2020
  • 28.8% in 2021
  • 24.1% in 2022
  • 22.1% in 2023
  • 23.1% in 2024
For comparison the Federal Government only spent 21.2% of GDP in 1942 while fighting WWII (it peaked at almost 41% in 44 and 45).  

Even if we could manage to sustain 19.8% collections we'd still need spending to average 23% or less just to keep the debt growing slower than or only as fast as the economy (averages 3.2%).  We've only achieved that in one of the past five years.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
« Reply #46626 on: July 08, 2025, 05:31:31 PM »
Any steps towards making the quality of tax attorney irrelevant would be a good start.  Simple, specific tax language with no wiggle room or space for bullshit would be nice.
Now you sound like a Steve Forbes Republican, remember his flat tax.  

FWIW, I agree with this.  Giving Congress the ability to dramatically impact incomes with various deductions only encourages graft.  The "Egg Lobby" can spend and get tax breaks for chicken farmers and so on.  A flatter, simpler tax would involve less of that nonsense.  

FearlessF

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Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
« Reply #46627 on: July 08, 2025, 05:49:01 PM »
a flatter simpler tax like a large sales tax

buy a fancy automobile, a big ass boat, a huge house on 45 acres, a steak dinner & drinks at the most fancy place in the city, tickets to the symphony or the opera
heck, buy a $9000 humidor and fill it with $40 cigars, or fill your wine cellar with the good stuff

Pay the tax
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
« Reply #46628 on: July 08, 2025, 05:49:31 PM »
They're the same.  They're the same pill.
Dick pills?

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
« Reply #46629 on: July 08, 2025, 07:05:38 PM »
A flat tax of course would be viewed as regressive, and labeled as such.  It might encourage the black economy if set too high.  But, I'm for tax simplification.  You get a standard deduction, OK if you like that, and done.  Remember the furor over the SALT deductions?  How about tax credits for buying the right sort of car?  Then you get into the corporate tax world and it gets insane, I know our company had a huge tax department looking for deductions.  This is very inefficient obviously, you have bean counters trying to avoid taxes.  It's not productive in a general sense.

FearlessF

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Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
« Reply #46630 on: July 08, 2025, 07:14:36 PM »
and politicians don't want to address it or clean it up
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
« Reply #46631 on: July 08, 2025, 07:24:45 PM »
I don't see a practicable solution to our debt problem.  My best hope is debt as a percentage of GDP can stop rising, and perhaps decline slowly over time.  And that's a slight hope.  If we hit a recession, all bets are off clearly, that is one thing that quite obviously tanks receipts and tends to send spending higher.  The US used to have a recession about every ten years, we have not had one now in 15, aside from COVID.

I'm willing to consider a "billionaire tax", not that my vote counts, if the details were more, um, detailed.  My guess is the paperwork involved would offset any revenue gained.  Think of how many folks would now need to file some kind of accounting for their net worth, not just billionaires, but everyone.  You'd have to prove you are not one, ostensible, somehow.  It would be good for the art market and probably precious metals and other collectibles.

FearlessF

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Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
« Reply #46632 on: July 08, 2025, 07:55:42 PM »
“Today we tell China to get the hell out of American agriculture,” Sen. Roger Marshall of Kansas said.

Leaders from Nebraska and Kansas joined the Trump administration to announce a new plan to secure American farms from foreign threats.

Marshall reiterated his position, “Do not pass go, get the hell out of American agriculture and the Trump administration is going to lead the way.”

Ag Secretary Brooke Rollins leads the charge on the new effort dubbed the National Farm Security Action Plan, with a goal of banning adversaries from buying farm ground.

“Actively engaging at every level of government to take swift legislative and executive action to ban the purchase of American farmland by Chinese nationals and foreign adversaries,” Rollins said during a press conference.

It follows action in states like Nebraska, as Gov. Jim Pillen joined the event.

“What on earth is going on with China?”

Pillen, a hog farmer, said he grew concerned with China as a threat and in 2024 he signed legislation placing new limits on foreign ownership of Nebraska land.

He joined multiple cabinet officials including Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem, and Attorney General Pam Bondi.

Peter Navarro, a key presidential economic advisor, raised concerns about foreign ownership of key ag companies.

“The Chinese bought Smithfield Foods and basically control an eighth of the world pork supply now. We’ve had food inflation. That can be part of that. And the other key purchase we allowed was Syngenta. What is that? It’s a seed company,” he said.

Syngenta is headquartered in Switzerland, a multinational company that had bought out assets around the world before being acquired by a Chinese chemical company. Syngenta not only supplies Nebraska farmers but has multiple facilities in the state.

Now Governor Pillen says that’s changing.

“Syngenta called me, wanted to come to the capitol and have a meeting. I said I have no interest in having a meeting, have no interest in you being in Nebraska. My suggestion would be to leave, to get a different job. I’m really proud to announce that Syngenta has sold their business in Nebraska to a family owned genetic company in the US so we’re excited about that,” Pillen said.

Syngenta announced last week it was selling its Hamilton County seed corn plant to Midwest based Beck’s Hybrids. Scott Beck recently told us Nebraska is one of the fastest growing markets, as the family owned company has multiple facilities in Seward County.

Hamilton County Commission Chair Rich Nelson told the Rural Radio Network that Beck’s has signs everywhere and has made a big push in the area. Still, Nelson said commissioners were surprised to learn Beck’s was buying the Syngenta plant near Aurora but he said they have no information that Governor Pillen leveraged the China connection to bring about a sale.

In addition, Syngenta operates a Waterloo seeds facility and a crop protection facility in Omaha.

American agriculture relies on many multinational companies like Bayer and JBS. Both of those are from countries deemed friendly and now the ag secretary is joining CFIUS, the government panel that determines which countries are threats.

“If nothing else happened today having Brooke Rollins on that board, that’s a big deal,” Peter Navarro said.

Rollins did not outline specifics for how the administration will deal with Chinese companies.

“We are looking at every available option, there are multiple options, you’ll likely see an executive order soon from the white house with multiple authorities to begin to claw that back,” she said.

In addition to ownership of farm ground, Rollins said USDA is concerned about enemies infiltrating American ag research facilities to steal technology or launch cyberattacks.

She said the USDA will cancel agreements with countries of concern and said the country is removing 70 citizens from countries of concern who are working in research or under contracts with the USDA.

As the Trump administration sharpens its focus on securing American farmland, the message is clear: foreign adversaries are no longer welcome but it’s not clear how exactly they plan to deal with that.

The National Farm Security Action Plan takes action across seven areas, as outlined by USDA:

Secure and Protect American Farmland – Address U.S. foreign farmland ownership from adversaries head on. Total transparency. Tougher penalties.
Enhance Agricultural Supply Chain Resilience – Refocus domestic investment into key manufacturing sectors and identify non-adversarial partners to work with when domestic production is not available. Plan for contingencies.
Protect U.S. Nutrition Safety Net from Fraud and Foreign Exploitation – Billions have been stolen by foreign crime rings. That ends now.
Defend Agricultural Research and Innovation – No more sweetheart deals or secret pacts with hostile nations. American ideas stay in America.
Put America First in Every USDA Program – From farm loans to food safety, every program will reflect the America First agenda.
Safeguard Plant and Animal Health – Crack down on bio-threats before they ever reach our soil.
Protect Critical Infrastructure – Farms, food, and supply chains are national security assets—and will be treated as such.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

utee94

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Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
« Reply #46633 on: July 08, 2025, 08:36:28 PM »
A flat tax of course would be viewed as regressive, and labeled as such.  It might encourage the black economy if set too high.  But, I'm for tax simplification.  You get a standard deduction, OK if you like that, and done.  Remember the furor over the SALT deductions?  How about tax credits for buying the right sort of car?  Then you get into the corporate tax world and it gets insane, I know our company had a huge tax department looking for deductions.  This is very inefficient obviously, you have bean counters trying to avoid taxes.  It's not productive in a general sense.
Well, it's productive for the professional careers of bean counters...

 

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