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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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MikeDeTiger

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Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
« Reply #45206 on: June 12, 2025, 10:55:19 AM »
Those are the ones who are paid to do so.

They exist, but I'm certain a lot of them are idiots who do it for free.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
« Reply #45207 on: June 12, 2025, 10:57:49 AM »
It's part of Florida's "stand your ground" law.
This is a minor and probably purely semantic point but you don't need a Stand Your Ground law to flee.  

SYG Laws, as I understand, generally permit you to defend yourself RATHER than fleeing.  

Lawyers here can comment/correct me but:
At common law you have a right to defend yourself BUT if there is a viable escape option you are generally NOT permitted to use deadly force.  Ie, you can defend yourself if you have no choice but if you have a choice, you have to leave.  SYG eliminates the requirement to leave if possible.  

In the case as explained by Governor DeSantis he is talking about someone who is surrounded and thus UNABLE to flee without running over someone.  Fleeing in that situation would be condoned by common law with no need to resort to SYG.  

847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
« Reply #45208 on: June 12, 2025, 11:02:21 AM »
I'd resort to both, most likely. Never been in that situation and don't expect to ever be in that situation.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

FearlessF

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Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
« Reply #45209 on: June 12, 2025, 11:04:50 AM »
until you visit Cali or Chicago
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Mdot21

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Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
« Reply #45210 on: June 12, 2025, 11:26:17 AM »
until you visit Cali or Chicago
why would anyone visit either of those shitholes when Florida and New York City exist? if you want sun, amazing beaches, nightlife with the most attractive women in the US- Florida absolutely shits all over California every single time. if you want the big city vibe with amazing food and sight seeing- New York City absolutely shits all over Chicago every single time. Neither are particularly close imo.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
« Reply #45211 on: June 12, 2025, 11:27:12 AM »
I'd resort to both, most likely. Never been in that situation and don't expect to ever be in that situation.
I haven't either but I was close to one once.  It wasn't political at all:

I was in St. Louis as a tourist and upon leaving the Arch I was on a small road adjacent to the Mississippi River when a HUMONGOUS swarm of motorcyclists essentially "buzzed" the traffic.  

Now I'm a motorcyclist myself so I'm not denigrating all motorcyclists but these guys were IDIOTS.  I said "buzzed" because they passed a group of cars (mine included) at a GREAT rate of speed in a no passing zone and with traffic and pedestrians all over the place.  Anyway, the car in front of mine somehow pissed off the bikers.  I *THINK* they thought that he had tried to close the gap to the car in front of him to prevent them from swarming back into the appropriate lane.  Anyway, one of the bikers put his bike on it's kickstand, got off, walked up to the (now) stopped car, jumped up, and kicked the hood.  

The guy in the car wasn't completely surrounded but he couldn't back up because I was behind him and he couldn't really go around the biker because there was oncoming traffic to the left and a busy sidewalk to the right.  

I wondered what I would have done if I had been him.  I think when the biker jumped up in the air he'd have been borderline justified to floor it and ram him.  Considerations aren't just legal though.  There were a bunch of other bikers not all that far ahead so if he HAD run over the one who attacked his car he would likely have been attacked by a much larger group of them and while you can run over a guy off of his bike this guy was driving a small car not a large SUV or pickup so I don't think he would have made it over a group of bikes and obviously if he ran over one or two bikers and their bikes then got his car hung up on the bikes, he'd have been dead before the police arrived so the legalities would have been irrelevant for him.  

SFBadger96

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Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
« Reply #45212 on: June 12, 2025, 12:27:42 PM »
I'm buried at work these days, so only watching all of this from afar, but I'll lend my perspective, briefly, without the time to edit it for everyone's benefit (including my own):

Nonviolent protest met with strong police resistance almost always turns violent to some degree. In our own country, you can go back to the Brits shooting into the protestris in Boston in 1770 to see examples of this.

There are absolutely agitators and criminals who take advantage of large non-violent protests to do stupid (including violent) stuff. (And people do weird things when instilled with the feeling of power that comes from acting in a large group.)

Currently, the left and the right are choosing and tailoring their own narratives over what is going on regarding these ICE raids and the resulting protests. If you're on the right, it's easy to point to examples of lawlessness and violence and claim that those crazy leftists are sparking open rebellion in the streets. If you're on the left it's easy to point to the facism inherent in sending armed people to confront protesters, inevitably leading to violence that is then used as an excuse for martial law (and more).

From where I sit--comfortably in an office building in a major city in California--I'm more sypmathetic to the left, but I'm wary of buying too much into the conspiracy theory that this is all intended to bring down our democracy. And undoubtedly unsavory characters are doing unsavory (and violent) things that appear aligned with the protests that I do not approve of.

Probably my friends on the left would claim I'm some kind of milquetoast supporter of facism because I'm not all in on the facism theory--notwithstanding that I think the Trump administration's conduct predictably led to these protests and show that the anti-immigrant rhetoric is absolutely not limited to just hardened criminals, and absolutely does include some inherent racial bias. It's hard to explain the conduct of these ICE raids and the quotas any other way.

I guess that's my way of pushing back on the narrative that takes hold on this generally right leaning message board, without buying into what I see in my social media feed, which is extreme in the opposite direction.

I think the Trump administration is plainly not focused on just deporting hardened criminals; I think sorting out who should be able to stay and who needs to go is far more complicated than whether a person came here with proper documentation; I think the Trump administration is intentionally sparking violence in large cities where the populations are plainly anti-Trump; and I'm not suprised by any of it--nor do I think that the Trump administration is going to suspend our democracy. Next year they will lose the House, and in three years, Trump will be the lamest of lame duck presidents, with an open presidential election taking up all of the new cycle.

Rant concluded. For now.

SFBadger96

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Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
« Reply #45213 on: June 12, 2025, 12:30:24 PM »
Oh, but one more thing--I am becoming more and more concerned about the profligate spending by both parties and how in the world we will stop it.

Oh, and I'm amused by the description of California as a sh#thole. You want Florida? It's all yours. I'll happily stay here.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
« Reply #45214 on: June 12, 2025, 12:32:49 PM »
Oh, but one more thing--I am becoming more and more concerned about the profligate spending by both parties and how in the world we will stop it.
Becoming?  I've been, suspect you have as well, though it just gets worse and worse.  Neither party can stop it, won't stop it, if they did, they'd be out of office post haste.

It's very obviously a hyper serious issue with no practicable solution at all, just baloney from politicians.

utee94

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Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
« Reply #45215 on: June 12, 2025, 12:34:25 PM »
Why would they need to be focused on deporting "hardened criminals" alone?   They should certainly be targeted and expelled, but the process should not stop there.

I'm not cool with the mistakes being made when actual US citizens are detained.  But beyond that, anyone here without proper immigration is subject to the laws of this country, whatever amount of due process they deserve based on their status as non-citizens,  and the deportation that should follow.

SFBadger96

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Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
« Reply #45216 on: June 12, 2025, 12:37:36 PM »
Yes, I have been concerned about it for some time, and my concern is getting more and more serious. Some of the rhetoric around it--like the rhetoric around all political issues--is often overblown, but the basics: during relative times of peace and serucity, the government shouldn't be spending more than it collects shouldn't be that hard to get our heads around.

And the problem is that neither side has any interest in actually resolving this because to do so would require long-term and nuanced thinking about how to cut back over time without devastating the economy. Long-term, nuanced thinking is not a democracy's (or probably any governmental system's) strong suit.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
« Reply #45217 on: June 12, 2025, 12:41:21 PM »
The two main issues for me with deporting them ALL are:

1.  It's not practicable, at all, and it can't happen.  The numbers are overwhelming.  ICE can deport a minor slice, those easiest to find, and make a big publicity deal out of it, but the vast vast majority won't self deport and won't get caught.

2.  In my OPINION, 90+ percent contribute to the economy and live quiet lives legally except for their documentation.  They work hard, try and stay invisible, send money back to families, and just try and "get along" as best they can  We'd take a major economic hit if magically they all disappeared.

I favor a reasonable path to making them "legal" if they commit not violent or other serious crimes.  Legal short of citizenship, a kind of modified green card.

The thugs?  By all means, focus on them.

utee94

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Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
« Reply #45218 on: June 12, 2025, 12:47:39 PM »
The two main issues for me with deporting them ALL are:

1.  It's not practicable, at all, and it can't happen.  The numbers are overwhelming.  ICE can deport a minor slice, those easiest to find, and make a big publicity deal out of it, but the vast vast majority won't self deport and won't get caught.

2.  In my OPINION, 90+ percent contribute to the economy and live quiet lives legally except for their documentation.  They work hard, try and stay invisible, send money back to families, and just try and "get along" as best they can  We'd take a major economic hit if magically they all disappeared.

I favor a reasonable path to making them "legal" if they commit not violent or other serious crimes.  Legal short of citizenship, a kind of modified green card.

The thugs?  By all means, focus on them.

It's fine to have such an opinion.  There is no evidence to support this opinion.

NorthernOhioBuckeye

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Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
« Reply #45219 on: June 12, 2025, 12:52:44 PM »
I'm buried at work these days, so only watching all of this from afar, but I'll lend my perspective, briefly, without the time to edit it for everyone's benefit (including my own):

Nonviolent protest met with strong police resistance almost always turns violent to some degree. In our own country, you can go back to the Brits shooting into the protestris in Boston in 1770 to see examples of this.

There are absolutely agitators and criminals who take advantage of large non-violent protests to do stupid (including violent) stuff. (And people do weird things when instilled with the feeling of power that comes from acting in a large group.)

Currently, the left and the right are choosing and tailoring their own narratives over what is going on regarding these ICE raids and the resulting protests. If you're on the right, it's easy to point to examples of lawlessness and violence and claim that those crazy leftists are sparking open rebellion in the streets. If you're on the left it's easy to point to the facism inherent in sending armed people to confront protesters, inevitably leading to violence that is then used as an excuse for martial law (and more).

From where I sit--comfortably in an office building in a major city in California--I'm more sypmathetic to the left, but I'm wary of buying too much into the conspiracy theory that this is all intended to bring down our democracy. And undoubtedly unsavory characters are doing unsavory (and violent) things that appear aligned with the protests that I do not approve of.

Probably my friends on the left would claim I'm some kind of milquetoast supporter of facism because I'm not all in on the facism theory--notwithstanding that I think the Trump administration's conduct predictably led to these protests and show that the anti-immigrant rhetoric is absolutely not limited to just hardened criminals, and absolutely does include some inherent racial bias. It's hard to explain the conduct of these ICE raids and the quotas any other way.

I guess that's my way of pushing back on the narrative that takes hold on this generally right leaning message board, without buying into what I see in my social media feed, which is extreme in the opposite direction.

I think the Trump administration is plainly not focused on just deporting hardened criminals; I think sorting out who should be able to stay and who needs to go is far more complicated than whether a person came here with proper documentation; I think the Trump administration is intentionally sparking violence in large cities where the populations are plainly anti-Trump; and I'm not suprised by any of it--nor do I think that the Trump administration is going to suspend our democracy. Next year they will lose the House, and in three years, Trump will be the lamest of lame duck presidents, with an open presidential election taking up all of the new cycle.

Rant concluded. For now.
But that is not what was happening.

ICE was executing arrrest warrents on KNOWN criminals that were involved with a money laundery scheme with the Mexican cartels. Some or most of those involved were also illegal aliens. They were attacted by people sympathetic to illegal immigrants. When they were attacked, they called on the LAPD to assist. They declined. They then called on the Sheriff's office and had the same response. They were left with calling on the Federal Goverment to assist. That is when the decision was made to call in the NG.

Regardless of your feelings about Trump or deporting illegal aliens, I think we can all agree that when law inforcement is egaging in their Constitutional duties, it is reasonable to assume that local law enforcment at the very least would come to their aid. However, the political climate of that state and city is such that the lives of Fed LEO's is worth less than the sensiblities of those residing in the country illegally.

 

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