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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43330 on: April 05, 2025, 01:35:38 PM »
Trump’s new tariffs aren’t a trade tweak—they’re the first move in a full-spectrum reset. – TheWatchTowers.org



Kind of how I think the novice economist should look at it.  May work, may not.  But it is bold and courageous, and not for personal gain, but for the long term correction of things we have all been bitching about for a while.

So- when you call it a trade war- you are playing infant checkers versus the chess that is being attempted.
I'll bet you a dollar Trump doesn't know how to play actual chess.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43331 on: April 05, 2025, 02:05:27 PM »
Attached is an excerpt from an email I received from a trusted advisor.  It gives a good perspective from both a current and historical viewpoint.  I can't attach files, but the excerpt is good.  

Draw your own conclusions:
 
***********************

Markets are trying to assess if Trump’s announcement will trigger an all-out trade war which in turn may increase the risk of recession during an already slowing economy.  Let’s start with an article from First Trust that helps explain tariffs.  After explaining what tariffs are in the first few pages, page. 3 shows the impacts of Trump’s tariffs during his first term.  

As you will see, they caused a lot of market volatility, especially when first announced, but in turn did not create a detrimental amount of inflation.  Tariffs dominated headlines and sparked fear in markets, but with time, negotiations picked up, we had resolution, and markets were over 20% higher as a result.  

Page. 7 illustrates previous US tariffs compared to our trading partners.  To be clear, I don’t condone bullying our partners, but this helps illustrate the imbalance.  The new tariff announcements bring levels to the highest we’ve seen since the early to mid-1900’s.  I think we can all agree a lot has changed since then, but with that said I don’t see these levels sticking for very long without some sort of resolution.  No one wins in a trade war.  


Page. 13 shows exports as a share of GDP.  The concern is that recession (two consecutive quarters of negative GDP) will be triggered.  This report shows that the US has the lowest percentage of GDP reliant on exports.  In other words, we have the least reliance on exports to help drive our countries growth.  Other trade partners are much more impacted than the US.  There are a lot of other great slides and pertinent information in this deck, I only highlighted a few main points.
 
The second attachment is from Fidelity Investments.  In their top takeaways, they note that the “uncertainty is a bigger risk than tariffs themselves”.  They also note that recession is still not their base case, although markets may remain volatile as tariffs remain a prevalent topic.  

They reiterate how long-term investors should focus on overall strategic goals and diversification needs rather than reacting to short-term events or trying to trade around them.  They also mention how diversification and exposure to alternative asset classes (structured products among other areas of private markets) can help provide ballast during market volatility.  Again, there is a lot of other important information discussed; I simply provided the cliff notes version. 
 
Lastly, I’ve attached JPMorgan’s 2Q Guide to the Markets.  This is a 71-page release that I send out quarterly.  You’ve seen a few of the slides I’ve shown before (still a nice reminder), included with a few newer ones they added.  

Firstly, page. 16, an oldie but a goodie.  This illustrates how intra-year declines are uncomfortable, although quite normal.  This shows that the average intra year drop in the SP500 is 14.1%, however annual returns were positive in 34 of 45 years.  

Staying invested and diversified is key.  

Slide 20 shows consumer confidence and returns of the SP500 12 months later.  I thought it was interesting to see that when consumer confidence hits lows, markets vastly outperform over the next year.  Again, this illustrates how important it is to stay invested during downturns and how continuing to buy stock even though it may be uncomfortable is smart.  

Page 31 is a new slide we haven’t seen before.  It is a bar graph of tariffs on US imports dating back to 1930.  The current tariff estimate brings these rates back to levels we haven’t seen since the mid 1900’s.  It doesn’t mean these levels will be permanent, but it helps add context to the risk that markets are currently trying to price in and why we’ve seen so much volatility over the past few days.  

Pg. 33 is interesting because it shows the Fed and the interest rate outlook.  As you will see, they expect the Fed to lower rates 3-4 times over the next year which will provide a relief and be a tailwind for markets.  Slide 51 shows similar data to the First Trust article, illustrating export exposure by country.  Again, the US is among the lowest.  

Lastly, page 76 shows historical data when investing at all-time highs.  This slide always surprises me, as it shows that eventually, with time, all-time highs become the new market floor.  The next few slides illustrate this point in more detail, showing the longer time we invest, the more predictable and stable the returns.  

Investing, or judging growth on a one-year period, can lead to a vast difference in returns.  They go on to illustrate a strong and resilient economy. 
 
 


U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

Honestbuckeye

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43332 on: April 05, 2025, 02:22:18 PM »
I'll bet you a dollar Trump doesn't know how to play actual chess. 
Maybe.  You said earlier in this thread that you were financially illiterate.  ( which of course is not true, but you are saying it just isn’t your “thing”).

Take it from someone with advanced degrees in finance and economics.  What he is doing is comprehensive and complex.  What he is trying to accomplish are very positive outcomes for the country- especially the lower to middle class.  There is risk.  Lots of it.  It is bold- takes some balls.  It could fall flat on its face. 

But if it is directionally effective- it will improve numerous things that you typically bring up on this forum about the challenges that working people face in this country. 

Hate him from sunrise till sundown ( he gives us plenty of ammo to), but you should be rooting for this plan if you care as much about the “ middle class” as much as you appear to. 
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43333 on: April 05, 2025, 02:26:54 PM »
I know.

But I can cheer for the 4'8" kid trying to dunk all I want.....he's not going to dunk the basketball.  

That 34% China just put up is a problem.  Even in the 30,000' view of this stuff.  We buy A LOT of shit from China.  
I'd love for Trump not to be a dipshit.  But he's seeking out icebergs to hit and we've got nowhere to abandon ship.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

ELA

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43334 on: April 05, 2025, 02:32:17 PM »
And the main issue with China isn't tariffs, its them pirating our IP.  Do higher tariffs dissuade that?  If that's the aim, I'm 110% on board.

FearlessF

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43335 on: April 05, 2025, 02:39:02 PM »
yup, I think it's a bigger problem for China
I hope so
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Honestbuckeye

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43336 on: April 05, 2025, 02:39:22 PM »
I know.

But I can cheer for the 4'8" kid trying to dunk all I want.....he's not going to dunk the basketball. 

That 34% China just put up is a problem.  Even in the 30,000' view of this stuff.  We buy A LOT of shit from China. 
I'd love for Trump not to be a dipshit.  But he's seeking out icebergs to hit and we've got nowhere to abandon ship.
Well if there is a better set of answers- let’s hear them.  Nobody in either party has even tried anything serious, or suggested even a mildly plausible set of alternatives.  So it is either continue down this path and deteriorate further- or try something.  
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain

jgvol

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43337 on: April 05, 2025, 03:30:14 PM »
I know.

But I can cheer for the 4'8" kid trying to dunk all I want.....he's not going to dunk the basketball. 

That 34% China just put up is a problem.  Even in the 30,000' view of this stuff.  We buy A LOT of shit from China. 
I'd love for Trump not to be a dipshit.  But he's seeking out icebergs to hit and we've got nowhere to abandon ship.

Got you marked down for the “kick the can down the road” camp. Noted. 

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43338 on: April 05, 2025, 04:53:22 PM »
Oh no, let's not pretend it's either kick the can or evaporate $6 trillion, don't you dare.

Whether our overall import/outport/tariff environment is a net positive or negative, the US has been ultra-successfully owning the financial world for the past 10-15 years.  

Trump is at best acting extremely risky and at worst sending us off a cliff for a problem that isn't an actual problem.  Even if things looked backwards in a vacuum, we don't live in a vacuum.  
Trump couldn't stop saying how he'd lower prices on day one leading up to the election and since his day 1, has literally done everything in his power to increase prices of everything.

The fact any of you are defending this is total evidence that you are intellectually broken when it comes to this.  You're citizens of Trumpistan.  

You know what?  I want the world to win.  I want them to defeat this dipshit who wishes he had an iron fist.  All he has is orange makeup and yes men.  Sorry, Donald, seek your dictatorship elsewhere.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Honestbuckeye

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43339 on: April 05, 2025, 05:39:38 PM »
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain

utee94

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43340 on: April 05, 2025, 07:17:53 PM »
And the main issue with China isn't tariffs, its them pirating our IP.  Do higher tariffs dissuade that?  If that's the aim, I'm 110% on board.
Higher tariffs on China versus other countries will incent American firms to move manufacturing out of China which will have the benefit of protecting American IP from China's nationalized, state-sponsored piracy.


It might not necessarily result in repatriating jobs to the USA, although that will happen in several industries like semiconductors, and computer and consumer electronics manufacturing.  But even just moving that manufacturing out of China will be beneficial.  There are numerous lower-cost manufacturing nations, since China is no longer considered a low-cost manufacturing nation for many of the goods we offshored over there.  That's partly because their anti-competitive behaviors disguise hidden costs that don't surface in a strict COGS analysis, but smart companies are figuring it out and making moves to protect themselves.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2025, 07:46:24 PM by utee94 »

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43341 on: April 05, 2025, 08:08:11 PM »
If anything causes companies' manufacturing out of China, it's not coming to the US, it's going to the very next-cheapest country (Vietnam or whotever).

China minus the headache. 

We all know this.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

ELA

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43342 on: April 05, 2025, 08:27:21 PM »
Higher tariffs on China versus other countries will incent American firms to move manufacturing out of China which will have the benefit of protecting American IP from China's nationalized, state-sponsored piracy.


It might not necessarily result in repatriating jobs to the USA, although that will happen in several industries like semiconductors, and computer and consumer electronics manufacturing.  But even just moving that manufacturing out of China will be beneficial.  There are numerous lower-cost manufacturing nations, since China is no longer considered a low-cost manufacturing nation for many of the goods we offshored over there.  That's partly because their anti-competitive behaviors disguise hidden costs that don't surface in a strict COGS analysis, but smart companies are figuring it out and making moves to protect themselves.
Thats why Im fine with tariffing the shit out of China.  But it seems like they are using the same 2nd grade math to calculate the numbers there that they are using against islands with just penguins.  I don't hate the general thought, but the way it was executed, and the fact that they gave us their awful math is what worries me. 

That gets back to my biggest problem with Trump, is that he is unwilling to engage in actual discourse. you either tell him yes, or you get fired, which is why he is now surrounded by idiots, because everybody should be told no sometimes.  But you either tell him yes, or you get fired, until he finds someone dumb enough to say yes to everything.  Its literally the exact opposite of Lincolns mentality

Honestbuckeye

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43343 on: April 05, 2025, 08:36:50 PM »
Thats why Im fine with tariffing the shit out of China.  But it seems like they are using the same 2nd grade math to calculate the numbers there that they are using against islands with just penguins.  I don't hate the general thought, but the way it was executed, and the fact that they gave us their awful math is what worries me.

That gets back to my biggest problem with Trump, is that he is unwilling to engage in actual discourse. you either tell him yes, or you get fired, which is why he is now surrounded by idiots, because everybody should be told no sometimes.  But you either tell him yes, or you get fired, until he finds someone dumb enough to say yes to everything.  Its literally the exact opposite of Lincolns mentality
It fascinates me that you think this.   He is surrounded by really smart people.  Thankfully.  And is known for his discourse. 
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain

 

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