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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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SFBadger96

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41426 on: January 27, 2025, 02:26:18 PM »
Well, I think unions bring corruption. Of course, y'all know where I'm from so there's that.

We do some public works stuff and most of it is union-only. So, when we bid that work, we charge twice as much as we have to pay our LAND SURVEYING techs prevailing wage for PLUMBERS (that is the union that managed to break into the surveying business).

And the taxpayer pays twice as much for their road (or whatever we are building).
Both things can be (and are) true. Unions--like any human-run enterprise--can and do have corruption. They also can and do protect middle class wages, and middle class wage earners from the owner class. All of this is human, so none of it is perfect.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41427 on: January 27, 2025, 03:18:32 PM »
I'd think if a thing is a "basic human right" it would mean every human (or citizen) should be provided that right (probably with some limitations).  We have a "right to bear arms", but we don't expect government to buy us the arms.  We have a limited right to free speech, but we don't expect government to buy us a newspaper to write in.

As noted above, our "rights" in the Constitution mean government can't take something away from us, not that government has to provide a thing to us.

Should I have a "right" to work for $3 an hour if that is my choice?  Should I have the right to have a job without joining a union?  I have a right to own property, like housing, but nobody buys it for me.

MrNubbz

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41428 on: January 27, 2025, 04:02:54 PM »
Yeah, you missed the boat here.  It happens.
You missed the point they built houses out of their time and efforts it wasn't a gov't undertaking. That's a good word the Gov't seems to be taking evrything under.They have/had no skin in the DC Follies
"Let us endeavor so to live - that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41429 on: January 27, 2025, 06:14:36 PM »
Once again you make the mistake of assuming the economy is a zero-sum game.
No.

I know it's not, yet my statement holds true.  New wealth is created on the backs of the worker bees, but the grown wealth only goes to those who already have it.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41430 on: January 27, 2025, 06:15:28 PM »
You missed the point they built houses out of their time and efforts it wasn't a gov't undertaking. That's a good word the Gov't seems to be taking evrything under.They have/had no skin in the DC Follies
My comment had nothing to do with the amish.  You've missed the boat twice now.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41431 on: January 27, 2025, 06:17:13 PM »
I'd think if a thing is a "basic human right" it would mean every human (or citizen) should be provided that right (probably with some limitations).  We have a "right to bear arms", but we don't expect government to buy us the arms.  We have a limited right to free speech, but we don't expect government to buy us a newspaper to write in.

As noted above, our "rights" in the Constitution mean government can't take something away from us, not that government has to provide a thing to us.
The government has taken away our right to build a house, by and large.  99.9% of us have to pay someone to do it and have it be inspected, etc (for good reasons, of course).  But if housing is a basic human right that we provide for ourselves, that'd be great.  But we're not really allowed to anymore.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41432 on: January 27, 2025, 06:26:23 PM »
@OrangeAfroMan have you given any thought to this? I wasn't being flippant. I'm actually trying to understand what it would entail to actually treating "housing" as a "basic human right" looks like. As mentioned, I don't know that I have much in the way of modeling this against other developed countries, and what they've attempted to do.

As mentioned, "healthcare" is an easy one from a basic human right perspective. While healthcare isn't *truly* an "undifferentiated" good, the provision model is very simple. Need care, go to a doctor / urgent care / hospital, and you have an expert there to determine what care you need. From there it's just the difficult aspect of who pays for it. Same with "food"... Ultimately we have relatively simple ways [i.e. SNAP and other programs] to ensure that people who need food but have difficulty affording it, can buy it. You could do similar things with income via universal basic income [UBI] programs.

But housing is a MUCH different thing. And so when you say we should treat it as a "basic human right", I literally have no idea what that looks like or how it would be provided. Since you brought this up, I'd hope that you could sketch out even some VERY limited ideas on what you're talking about?

People should be free to build a structure they're willing to live in.
Be the labor, buy the materials, and live in it.  We can't really do that now.  There are financial checkpoints that price this possibility and regulations/experts that much be paid and waited on that cost more money and take more time.
I think the ideas behind all that are generally good.  We want safe structures.  But why are we required to go through all of that?

Why can I build a 10x10 structure of whatever the hell I want at whatever the hell quality I can, but once it's 10x11, the entirety of our society comes calling to raise the cost 10x or whatever it is?  

I'm just advocating for allowing people to have the freedom to say, buy a piece of land and acquire a roof over their head however they see fit.  
It's not solely that, but that would be a good starting place.  I think we probably waste a ton of money on the homeless problem.

A big part of it might be more housing akin to shelters, as there are not enough beds.  Have some level of no-cost housing where people who have had much of their autonomy taken away could have that back.  These places would be horrific environments, obviously, but they'd be free to make their bad decisions in a climate-controlled structure instead of the side of the road.  

It's not an easy problem, but there's better than shrugging at the homeless problem while the wealthy rely on the ingenuity of the desperate to bail them out, ethically.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41433 on: January 27, 2025, 06:27:47 PM »
In kindergarten, kids are taught needs vs wants.

Aren't needs just basic human rights?  At least in some sense?  We don't want people to starve, so we have programs to feed them.
But we're cool with people sleeping in a cardboard box on the off-ramp of the highway.  WTF?
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Gigem

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41434 on: January 27, 2025, 07:06:19 PM »
People should be free to build a structure they're willing to live in.
Be the labor, buy the materials, and live in it.  We can't really do that now.  There are financial checkpoints that price this possibility and regulations/experts that much be paid and waited on that cost more money and take more time.
I think the ideas behind all that are generally good.  We want safe structures.  But why are we required to go through all of that?

Why can I build a 10x10 structure of whatever the hell I want at whatever the hell quality I can, but once it's 10x11, the entirety of our society comes calling to raise the cost 10x or whatever it is? 

I'm just advocating for allowing people to have the freedom to say, buy a piece of land and acquire a roof over their head however they see fit. 
It's not solely that, but that would be a good starting place.  I think we probably waste a ton of money on the homeless problem.

A big part of it might be more housing akin to shelters, as there are not enough beds.  Have some level of no-cost housing where people who have had much of their autonomy taken away could have that back.  These places would be horrific environments, obviously, but they'd be free to make their bad decisions in a climate-controlled structure instead of the side of the road. 

It's not an easy problem, but there's better than shrugging at the homeless problem while the wealthy rely on the ingenuity of the desperate to bail them out, ethically. 
I can get behind this. It’s the way it was done for 200+ years. Probably up until the 1960’s in most places including LA. 

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41435 on: January 27, 2025, 07:11:32 PM »
People should be free to build a structure they're willing to live in.
Be the labor, buy the materials, and live in it.  We can't really do that now.  There are financial checkpoints that price this possibility and regulations/experts that much be paid and waited on that cost more money and take more time.
I think the ideas behind all that are generally good.  We want safe structures.  But why are we required to go through all of that?

Why can I build a 10x10 structure of whatever the hell I want at whatever the hell quality I can, but once it's 10x11, the entirety of our society comes calling to raise the cost 10x or whatever it is? 

I'm just advocating for allowing people to have the freedom to say, buy a piece of land and acquire a roof over their head however they see fit. 
It's not solely that, but that would be a good starting place.  I think we probably waste a ton of money on the homeless problem.

A big part of it might be more housing akin to shelters, as there are not enough beds.  Have some level of no-cost housing where people who have had much of their autonomy taken away could have that back.  These places would be horrific environments, obviously, but they'd be free to make their bad decisions in a climate-controlled structure instead of the side of the road. 

It's not an easy problem, but there's better than shrugging at the homeless problem while the wealthy rely on the ingenuity of the desperate to bail them out, ethically. 
Thanks. At least that's a starting point... Building what you want, on your own land, seems like this should be an American priority. 

Here in CA, with our astronomical housing prices, there has at least been a decent amount of work towards reducing the red tape and zoning restrictions on additional dwelling units (ADUs), where for example someone can build a second small dwelling on their property. Often called "granny flats" to make them sound like it's just a place for family members, I know my brother was looking into building one on his own property as a rental. IMHO it's one way to get around one of the key issues with housing costs here--a lack of density. Like most of CA, they are screwing it up, but at least it's SOMETHING. 

That said, there's a major problem here... The cost of building is only partially materials, gov't restrictions, and permitting... The biggest cost is acquisition of land. I told the story a little while ago here of one of the properties in my neighborhood. It's believed that the owner committed arson and blew up his house, and [if his neighbor is to be believed] he then committed suicide when the authorities were closing in. However, that's immaterial... What's material is that the house is a complete teardown, it's being sold as-is, and the buyer is responsible for all of the demolition--yet the lot still sold for... $588,000. When you're talking about the insane cost of housing--realize that it's the LAND that has way more value than the structure on it...

Now, they could afford to buy a piece of land in BFE, where they can't get to any reasonable job without an insane amount commute. And they could put up a 10x10 structure at whatever quality they want... And probably not be hooked up to water & electric utilities. Which would suck, unless they were truly the type who could survive off the grid. 

This is why the question I posed to you is hard... The backup that you came up with is shelters. Well, we know from our current homeless problem that many of them don't want to be in shelters. Another backup is government constructed high-density housing. But anyone from Chicago knows what hellscapes the Robert Taylor Homes and Cabrini Green were... 

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41436 on: January 27, 2025, 07:26:25 PM »
Well, I think unions bring corruption. Of course, y'all know where I'm from so there's that.

Yeah, it's better to let companies screw their workers.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41437 on: January 27, 2025, 07:34:19 PM »
Thanks. At least that's a starting point... Building what you want, on your own land, seems like this should be an American priority.

Here in CA, with our astronomical housing prices, there has at least been a decent amount of work towards reducing the red tape and zoning restrictions on additional dwelling units (ADUs), where for example someone can build a second small dwelling on their property. Often called "granny flats" to make them sound like it's just a place for family members, I know my brother was looking into building one on his own property as a rental. IMHO it's one way to get around one of the key issues with housing costs here--a lack of density. Like most of CA, they are screwing it up, but at least it's SOMETHING.

That said, there's a major problem here... The cost of building is only partially materials, gov't restrictions, and permitting... The biggest cost is acquisition of land. I told the story a little while ago here of one of the properties in my neighborhood. It's believed that the owner committed arson and blew up his house, and [if his neighbor is to be believed] he then committed suicide when the authorities were closing in. However, that's immaterial... What's material is that the house is a complete teardown, it's being sold as-is, and the buyer is responsible for all of the demolition--yet the lot still sold for... $588,000. When you're talking about the insane cost of housing--realize that it's the LAND that has way more value than the structure on it...

Now, they could afford to buy a piece of land in BFE, where they can't get to any reasonable job without an insane amount commute. And they could put up a 10x10 structure at whatever quality they want... And probably not be hooked up to water & electric utilities. Which would suck, unless they were truly the type who could survive off the grid.

This is why the question I posed to you is hard... The backup that you came up with is shelters. Well, we know from our current homeless problem that many of them don't want to be in shelters. Another backup is government constructed high-density housing. But anyone from Chicago knows what hellscapes the Robert Taylor Homes and Cabrini Green were...
Sure, that's why I made sure I mentioned the autonomy bit.  It's a big deal and shelters require some things many can't/won't live up to.  I understand having those prereqs, but then we have many out on the streets. 

The land cost thing is very true, and would require some gov't owned parcels to be for free housing, which anyone adjacent to it would hate, and understandably so.

The really-nice areas who require a servant class (ie - landscapers etc) don't want their land values to decrease, so maybe they pay for transportation?  Maybe they pay for cheap parcels of land and transportation, keeping the worker bees at a precious arm's length.

Idk.  I just view needs as basic human rights in this time and place.  We're not talking about Yemen here.  The US in 2025 can work this problem.  We need ideas and trials.  They're not all going to work, but I've got to believe some are better that what we have now.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41438 on: January 27, 2025, 07:36:52 PM »
I can get behind this. It’s the way it was done for 200+ years. Probably up until the 1960’s in most places including LA.
Where are they going to buy?

Do those lots have water/electricity hookups? Do those lots have any road access? Are those lots near any reasonable jobs, schools, or basic infrastructure? 

I mean, if you're in even a REMOTELY populated area, that empty lot is going to cost so much that when you're living in a tent trying to build your house with your own two hands while working your full time job and paying the mortgage on your empty lot... Let's just say that it's not the most tenable solution. 

I don't even think it's the way it was done for 200+ years. Maybe it was on the frontier. Where the land was free if you homesteaded it, and your job was farming/ranching. 

But in any even marginally populated area, it's not the way it was done. 

MrNubbz

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41439 on: January 27, 2025, 07:41:03 PM »
My comment had nothing to do with the amish.  You've missed the boat twice now.
no you were bellowing coming right on the heels of my post of the Amish building tiny homes and doing it for nothing -  like everything you don't understand why others can't connect your acerbic yodeling, tinkerbell.Hence 94 quipped quit being such a baby. Ya but it's evryone else
"Let us endeavor so to live - that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

 

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