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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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SFBadger96

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38612 on: October 30, 2024, 02:09:26 PM »
Had an interesting conversation this morning about machiavellian moves in politics and their ramifications. The biggest one talked about in history classes is the 3/5 compromise, which is abhorrent to the modern mind, but represented a compromise without which, the "United States" may well not have continued at all. I'm not a big alternate history kind of a guy, but I can imagine many big differences in the world if the Constitution had not been ratified. Of course, we'll never know. My honest, not especially educated guess, is that some or all of the states that momentarily won their freedom would have gone back to being puppets of the colonial powers, but not exclusively England. But who knows? Certainly not me.

An interesting counterpoint is the creation of North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, Wyoming, Washington, and Idaho as separate states. This was pure politics--the Republicans (the party of civil rights at the time) did this for their own political gain. And without it, the various civil rights acts of the mid-century (through 1968) likely would never have passed (or much later). It's true that by 1948 the Democrats were including civil rights in their national platform, but it's also true that the Southern Democrats fought that tooth and nail until the 60s (at least in the senate--Lyndon Johnson is a complicated guy, but on this point, he made what I think was the right political calculation, even though he was largely right that it led to the loss of the South for the Democrats for a generation). It's fascinating to me that Georgia and North Carolina are more competitive today than Ohio and Missouri. It's also fascinating that the existence of particularly ND, SD, MT, and WY as separate states, where, by population and demography they would make more sense as one (although by land mass, that would be really big)--and the same could just as easily be said about several of the original colonies (Rhode Island and Delaware on one hand, and New Hampshire, Vermont, and Maine--the latter two were not original colonies, but whatever--on another).

As a Democrat and a Californian, I am, of course, aghast at the inequities of the electoral college (although personally I don't argue for its abolition). An interesting exercise is to think about what would happen if we combined states to make about 3 million people the minimum number, and, say, 13 million the max (these are arbitrary, but just looking at population sizes, those are two pretty easy splitting points, see here.)

So, combining states on the small end:
Add Alaska to Washington (because Alaska and Hawaii together don't get you to 3 million people)--(blue), and add Hawaii to one of the new Californias (see below).
Combine Vermont, Maine, and New Hampshire (total population right about 3 million), (blueish swing state).
Delaware and Rhode Island together don't get you to 3 million, and aren't geographically contiguous anyway, so stuff Delaware into Maryland (blue), and Rhode Island into Connecticut (blue).
Squeeze Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, and the Dakotas together, into a one state (Big Sky) of about 5 million people (RED).
Nebraska can't survive on its own, so squeeze it into Kansas (RED).
Then West Virginia into Kentucky (RED), and New Mexico into Arizona (very much a swing state--maybe the swingiest)

Mississippi, Arkansas, Nevada, and Iowa are now the smallest states, at 3-3.2M people.

On the other end, California, with ~39M people gets split into five states: put Hawaii with San Diego for Holiday California; Orange County with rural southern California, for Red California, the LA area would be two states, industrial LA (South), and Hollywood LA (north), and Green California (Norcal/Coast).

Texas, with 30M people is next on the chopping block: 4 states? 7.5M each? Houston Area, Dallas/Fort Worth, West Texas, and Remainder Texas (I'm not Texan, someone help me with that).

New York into two states: New York City (Blue), and Not New York City (swing blue).

Florida into three states, but add the 3 million American citizens in Puerto Rico who are disenfranchised now to the South: North (red), Middle (red), and South (blue?).

What's the end result for the electoral college?

I think that puts us at 46 states (but check my math), still with small and big states, and still with rural states and urban states.
No state has fewer than 5 electoral college votes, and none has more than 19. Pennsylvania, Illinois, Ohio, Georgia, and North Carolina are now the biggest states.

Electorally how would it change the balance?
Washington Stays blue. Holiday California is blue. Red California is red. The three remaining Californias are different shades of blue (dark in the north, medium, but different kinds of medium blue in the two LAs (rich blue in Hollywood, middle class blue in industrial).
Vermont, NH, and Maine are probably a swing state that leans blue.
NYC is blue, but not NYC is possibly a swing state leaning blue.
Texas probably has two clear reds, and two swing-ish states that lean red.
Florida probably becomes two red states, and a blue state (assuming Puerto Rico is reliably blue--Democrats certainly think so)? (I don't know Florida's political demographis that well, only that it used to be a swing state, and isn't any longer.)
The Big Sky State is deep red, but only one instead of four.
The new Kansas remains red.

Interestingly, what this would do (aside from subtracting EC votes because of the reduction in senators, and enfranchising Puerto Rico) isn't all that dramatic. The current electoral college map, crudely divided, has a roughly equal umber of people in solidly one-color states, but the Red states have an EC advantage. Unsurprisingly (given that and recent elections), there are more swing states that lean blue, and fewer swing states that lean red, but enough up for grabs that in a national election, both parties have a shot.

Under my changes (and my crude characterization of voting propensities), there would be slightly more people in solidly blue states, but the change in EC votes would still favor the red states. There would also be more swing states, and still more on the blue side of things, with almost exactly the same percentage of blue/red swinging states. Arizona plus New Mexico feels like a complete toss-up. Long story short, as much as I think Californians get screwed in the Presidential election, even the way I propose to fix it wouldn't really change things all that much. (Although representation in the Senate is a big deal, not to be ignored.)

See here (State, political lean, population in millions, EC votes):


And the time I've spent on this is one of the reasons I should spend less time here...and feel free to sharp shoot my inconsistencies in numbers and stuff--I've already spent way too much time on this.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2024, 02:28:32 PM by SFBadger96 »

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38613 on: October 30, 2024, 02:14:53 PM »
Hate speech has no place anywhere.

Honestly I'm disappointed in anyone here that doesn't find it unacceptable and intolerable.
I do. We should be capable of discussing someone that we disagree with or don't like with out a string of epithets and personal insults, namecalling, etc. Especially when some of it is based upon nothing more than an imagination of what that person MIGHT be doing (i.e. their sexual proclivities) despite not having any evidence of said activity. 

It's ridiculous, childish, and has no place here. 

bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38614 on: October 30, 2024, 02:16:34 PM »
If one commits a felony and goes to court, there is a cost - and should not be a cost to you and me.
In a society, it should. But the current system makes it harder to turn feelings into productive member of society. and maybe that’s a perk for some people.

You for your offense with the denial of most basic freedoms. Society pays for the mechanism, as it theoretically pays to keep society at large safe. 

utee94

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38615 on: October 30, 2024, 02:20:16 PM »


Texas, with 30M people is next on the chopping block: 4 states? 7.5M each? Houston Area, Dallas/Fort Worth, West Texas, and Remainder Texas (I'm not Texan, someone help me with that).
There is actually a provision in the Texas Annexation Treaty of 1845, that Texas could divide into up to 5 total states.  It's obviously never been seriously explored, but there is a legal provision to do so.

For cultural reasons, it might look something like this:



bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38616 on: October 30, 2024, 02:20:35 PM »
Hate speech has no place anywhere.

Honestly I'm disappointed in anyone here that doesn't find it unacceptable and intolerable.

I disagree with that first part. It’s a country with a certain level of freedom in that front, if some people want to be that way, they are allowed. 

But better people can shun folks who talk like that. This is a place that regulates itself to a degree. And if we want that degree to involve not having babbling grotesque rants, I think that’s well and good. 

If we decide that stuff has no place here, I’m fully on board. 

MaximumSam

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38617 on: October 30, 2024, 02:21:55 PM »
I enjoy Mdot and his Cartman ways

SFBadger96

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38618 on: October 30, 2024, 02:25:58 PM »
There is actually a provision in the Texas Annexation Treaty of 1845, that Texas could divide into up to 5 total states.  It's obviously never been seriously explored, but there is a legal provision to do so.

For cultural reasons, it might look something like this:



I thought there was something like that--but I'm trying to use population size to drive this thing. I suppose two extra senators wouldn't be bad, so sure--five Texases, of about 6 million each. But a 47-star flag would be harder to design than a 46-star flag. Prime numbers and all that.

ELA

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38619 on: October 30, 2024, 02:26:43 PM »
There is actually a provision in the Texas Annexation Treaty of 1845, that Texas could divide into up to 5 total states.  It's obviously never been seriously explored, but there is a legal provision to do so.

For cultural reasons, it might look something like this:


[img width=500 height=473.965]https://i.imgur.com/5I2zwL2.png[/img]
I assumed it would just split into Texas-SEC and Texas-Big XII

utee94

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38620 on: October 30, 2024, 02:27:19 PM »
I disagree with that first part. It’s a country with a certain level of freedom in that front, if some people want to be that way, they are allowed.

But better people can shun folks who talk like that. This is a place that regulates itself to a degree. And if we want that degree to involve not having babbling grotesque rants, I think that’s well and good.

If we decide that stuff has no place here, I’m fully on board.

I disagree with your disagreement with the first part.  Hate speech based on nothing but gender, sexual orientation, sexual identity, is no different than hate speech based solely on skin color.  It's ignorant, and bigoted, and it has no place anywhere. The fact that it's legally permissible doesn't mean it's acceptable, it doesn't mean it must be ignored by the people hearing it or reading it.  Counter responses condemning that behavior are appropriate and should be immediately forthcoming among a group with any decency.

As to the second part, there doesn't need to be a democratic vote on the matter, the site owners and moderators can shut it down as they see fit.

For my part, I'm going to call it out for the childish, ignorant, hateful bullshit that it is, every single time.  I'm tired of reading it, I'm tired of seeing it ignored and tolerated on this message board, so if the only response available to me is to call it out for the bullshit that it is, well you better believe that's going to happen every single time, from now on.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2024, 02:33:06 PM by utee94 »

utee94

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38621 on: October 30, 2024, 02:37:48 PM »
I enjoy Mdot and his Cartman ways
Yeah, see, I always though Cartman's persona was an ignorant dipshit and a complete asshole, so, well, there you have it.  I realize it was always a bit, but it was a stupid and tiresome one.

bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38622 on: October 30, 2024, 02:38:58 PM »
I disagree with your disagreement with the first part.  Hate speech based on nothing but gender, sexual orientation, sexual identity, is no different than hate speech based solely on skin color.  It's ignorant, and bigoted, and it has no place anywhere. The fact that it's legally permissible doesn't mean it's acceptable, it doesn't mean it must be ignored by the people hearing it or reading it.  Counter responses condemning that behavior are appropriate and should be immediately forthcoming among a group with any decency.

As to the second part, there doesn't need to be a democratic vote on the matter, the site owners and moderators can shut it down as they see fit.

For my part, I'm going to call it out for the childish, ignorant, hateful bullshit that it is, every single time.  I'm tired of reading it, I'm tired of seeing it ignored and tolerated on this message board, so if the only response available to me is to call it out for the bullshit that it is, well you better believe that's going to happen every single time, from now on.

I think we’re talking past each other on the top part. I’m thinking in a framework of free speech, you’re talking about acceptable and polite society.

And when I said “we,” more a general we. I.e. the folks who run this place. Were I in charge, I would’ve warned and banned this fella years ago. That style of posting makes this a worse place, by any measure.

Honestbuckeye

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38623 on: October 30, 2024, 02:40:28 PM »
Well I do believe in real free speech. And this is a message board. 

However, I would like to believe we are better than most message boards.  I would like to believe there is a bit of sense of community here.  After all, I have been giving and receiving a share of thoughts and time with you bastards for 20 years.  Hell, when I started, I had hair and metabolism. 😂

Seriously- we can argue and disagree( which do very well) without the rants that go overboard.  I can see that in a lot of places on social media- but don’t want to, which is why ( believe it or not) this is the only place I post and participate in.  

We talk CFB, politics, food, cars, movies, books, current events, lots of chili, pretty much name it. 
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain

utee94

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38624 on: October 30, 2024, 02:45:08 PM »
I think we’re talking past each other on the top part. I’m thinking in a framework of free speech, you’re talking about acceptable and polite society.

And when I said “we,” more a general we. I.e. the folks who run this place. Were I in charge, I would’ve warned and banned this fella years ago. That style of posting makes this a worse place, by any measure.
OK then.  I'll take you off The List. ;)

Your bottom point, is certainly the catalyst for my choice to speak out about it.  It diminishes this place.


SFBadger96

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38625 on: October 30, 2024, 02:45:59 PM »
I'm going to add: I've always assumed I--and the Democrats--were getting screwed in the EC. The truth is not nearly as one-sided as I have thought. Yes, Republicans are overrepresented in the EC, but not as much as I've always assumed. For every Wyoming there is a Vermont; every North and South Dakota? Rhode Island and Delaware. Those are the overrpresented. For the underrepresented California and New York? Texas and Florida.

And the reason I've never bought into eliminating the EC is that our union doesn't make sense if New York and California make all the decisions for Wyoming and Kansas. That necessarily means that the rural party--whatever it is--will be overrepresented. And that's probably the best way this political union stays together.

Anyway, that deep dive may not have been worth my time...but it also may have been.

I'm also conscious that I'm stubbornly trying to get some bites on that long-ass post, while you guys are talking about posting standards (and I am grateful to Utee for taking the stand he is taking--it's one of the things that pushed me away from here for a while).

 

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