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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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MrNubbz

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37590 on: October 01, 2024, 02:42:03 PM »
A couple of hot-button issues we've had locally lately:
Deer!  We have LOTS of deer in my town.  People who oppose culling the herd will tell you that they aren't infringing on our space, we are on theirs but what that ignores is that we chased out all of their predators.  Sure, 200 years ago there weren't many people here so the deer had free run but back then there were bears and wolves and whatnot.  We chased off all the bears and most of the wolves so now the local deer herd is enormous. 
Don't forget the cougars,coyotes but modern farming techniques/practices are yielding much more crops per acre than even 25 yrs ago. So they have much more to eat. I know in the '90s for a while I took two deer a year and many still starved with higher tag numbers than even last year I think it was 305,000 They do have to be culled or many more starve as basically vegitation doesn't start growing until late March/April. And many more farms are gone from even 25 yrs ago - sad really

Chrissie Hynde/Pretenders
Well, I went back to Ohio
But my family was gone
I stood on the back porch
There was nobody home

I was stunned and amazed
My childhood memories
Slowly swirled past
Like the wind through the trees
Ay, oh, way to go, Ohio

I went back to Ohio
But my pretty countryside
Had been paved down the middle
By a government that had no pride
"Let us endeavor so to live - that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37591 on: October 01, 2024, 03:34:44 PM »
Wish Israel could get their laser dome up before all this, but thankfully the current system does a lot too limit the damage of the missile onslaughts. 
Apparently enough of it is up such that this is all basically theatrics.  

Link to a CBS story on the attack.  

So apparently the Iranians fired "hundreds" of missiles at Israel and there are no casualties?  The article also reviews the April Iranian missile attack on Israel in which they fired >300 missiles and the only casualty was a child injured by shrapnel.  

The US pretty clearly knew this was coming as they announced it BEFORE it happened.  My supposition is that we knew because the Iranians told us.  If someone disagrees, please tell me, I'd like to hear your theory.  Here is mine:
  • If we knew based on having a spy inside Iranian high command then it would be ludicrous to announce our knowledge since that would let the Iranians know that we know.  
  • Conversely, them telling us sounds asinine but I think I have the logic worked out, see below:

CBS stated that an "Iranian diplomatic source" told them that "the country's leadership was 'under heavy pressure to take action' against Israel."  

Ok, so here is what I *THINK* happened:

Iran was under domestic pressure to "take action" against Israel but Iran doesn't actually want full-scale war with Israel let alone the United States so they told the US that they would be firing some conventional (non-nuclear, no gas) missiles at Israel as a 'show of force'.  The Iranians obviously knew that we would tell the Israelis so from a military standpoint this is beyond ludicrous but . . .

Then the Iranians got to bluster a bunch, calling Israel the "Zionist regime" and citing "terrorist acts" by said regime.  They are also claiming (to their citizens and others) a victory and stating that they may make additional attacks and that many missiles made it through the defenses.  This appears to be untrue (I obviously don't know) but I don't think Iran cares.  They got to bluster and appease their hard-liners and raising the possibility of additional attacks also appears calculated to calm their own hard-liners while the official statement to the UN sounds more like "ok, we are done".  

Like I said, I think this is all theatrics.  Iran gets to bluster and look tough but without actually doing enough damage to the Israelis to cause a retaliatory strike.  Iran's government looks good to their people because they "stood up to the terrorists in the Zionist regime" and Israel's government looks good to their people because their missile shield functioned perfectly.  Both governments look good to their own people and nobody got hurt, win/win.  

utee94

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37592 on: October 01, 2024, 03:50:28 PM »
Apparently enough of it is up such that this is all basically theatrics. 

Link to a CBS story on the attack

So apparently the Iranians fired "hundreds" of missiles at Israel and there are no casualties?  The article also reviews the April Iranian missile attack on Israel in which they fired >300 missiles and the only casualty was a child injured by shrapnel. 

The US pretty clearly knew this was coming as they announced it BEFORE it happened.  My supposition is that we knew because the Iranians told us.  If someone disagrees, please tell me, I'd like to hear your theory.  Here is mine:
  • If we knew based on having a spy inside Iranian high command then it would be ludicrous to announce our knowledge since that would let the Iranians know that we know. 
  • Conversely, them telling us sounds asinine but I think I have the logic worked out, see below:

CBS stated that an "Iranian diplomatic source" told them that "the country's leadership was 'under heavy pressure to take action' against Israel." 

Ok, so here is what I *THINK* happened:

Iran was under domestic pressure to "take action" against Israel but Iran doesn't actually want full-scale war with Israel let alone the United States so they told the US that they would be firing some conventional (non-nuclear, no gas) missiles at Israel as a 'show of force'.  The Iranians obviously knew that we would tell the Israelis so from a military standpoint this is beyond ludicrous but . . .

Then the Iranians got to bluster a bunch, calling Israel the "Zionist regime" and citing "terrorist acts" by said regime.  They are also claiming (to their citizens and others) a victory and stating that they may make additional attacks and that many missiles made it through the defenses.  This appears to be untrue (I obviously don't know) but I don't think Iran cares.  They got to bluster and appease their hard-liners and raising the possibility of additional attacks also appears calculated to calm their own hard-liners while the official statement to the UN sounds more like "ok, we are done". 

Like I said, I think this is all theatrics.  Iran gets to bluster and look tough but without actually doing enough damage to the Israelis to cause a retaliatory strike.  Iran's government looks good to their people because they "stood up to the terrorists in the Zionist regime" and Israel's government looks good to their people because their missile shield functioned perfectly.  Both governments look good to their own people and nobody got hurt, win/win. 

Well this is all what speculatively happened back in April, as well.

Early reports were that this was a massive missile attack, as it turns out seems like it was fewer than the time before. 

Anyway, I certainly hope that the response will be minimal.  




Gigem

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37593 on: October 01, 2024, 04:28:42 PM »
I could also be from surveillance photos. Maybe we can detect when they’re being equipment and materials in for a launch. Even heat signatures from things. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37594 on: October 01, 2024, 09:59:11 PM »
FYI I personally spend at least $5,000-$8,000 on fuel per month.  
Good lord, what do you drive?

FearlessF

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37595 on: October 01, 2024, 09:59:49 PM »
multiple fleet trucks
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Gigem

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37596 on: October 01, 2024, 10:07:34 PM »
Good lord, what do you drive?
My business vehicles. Fleet trucks, excavators, tractors, personal vehicles. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37597 on: October 01, 2024, 10:12:17 PM »
multiple fleet trucks
My business vehicles. Fleet trucks, excavators, tractors, personal vehicles.
Oh, that makes sense. I read "personally" to mean "for myself personally" not "I pay for it for my business".

847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37598 on: October 02, 2024, 07:35:04 AM »
We run about $4K/month for our survey trucks.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37599 on: October 02, 2024, 08:27:50 AM »
I could also be from surveillance photos. Maybe we can detect when they’re being equipment and materials in for a launch. Even heat signatures from things.
This is part of it, no doubt.  Some of the missiles are liquid fueled.  They usually are not fueled until just before being used.


The Shahab-3 is the foundation for all Iran's medium-range ballistic missiles using a liquid propellant, according to Patrick Senft, a research coordinator at Armament Research Services (ARES).

Gigem

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37600 on: October 02, 2024, 10:59:32 AM »
This is part of it, no doubt.  Some of the missiles are liquid fueled.  They usually are not fueled until just before being used.


The Shahab-3 is the foundation for all Iran's medium-range ballistic missiles using a liquid propellant, according to Patrick Senft, a research coordinator at Armament Research Services (ARES).
They could definitely detect them being fueled if it’s liquid because LOX is super cold. They tank farm tanks would show level up or down, and probably have tanker trucks coming and going. 

Temp430

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37601 on: October 02, 2024, 11:13:24 AM »
Such liquid fuel sites would be logical targets for any Israeli strike.  Many of the speculators in the media seem to think Israel will strike Iran's petroleum production, refining, and export facilities as Saddam Hussein did back in the 80s.
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SFBadger96

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37602 on: October 02, 2024, 12:20:08 PM »
We (the US) have excellent surveillance of many of our potential enemies (and probably friends). Attacks like these are interesting flash points. The one in April was probably largely used by Iran to test the missile defense systems in Isreal (and ours, since we have Aegis missile cruisers over there, too). This one feels a little less like a test, but every time they do this it does tell both sides a little more. I guarantee we have lots of people watching where the fueling and launching was taking place in Iran, and I guarantee that Iran is paying a lot of attention to not only the effectiveness of the air defense systems, but the number of them. All of this stuff is expensive, and it's hard to ramp up production in a hurry without a real mobilization effort.

Which is what I was thinking about regarding the so-called two-front war. First, we have rarely been ready to fight a two front war against major adversaries. To do so would take a massive mobilization, and a massive commitment of our nation's treasure. Yes, we have often had the goal of defending a two-front war, but even that has always been pretty suspect. Much of our current posture, as I understand it (which isn't all that well) is to (1) delay, and (2) flex. So we can send the Navy and a unit from the 18th Airborne Corps or the Marine Expeditionary Force anywhere in the world, and quickly. And our Air Force is able to reach out an touch someone just about anywhere in the world, though sometimes it requires forward deploying some folks (whether that's to Europe, Guam, or Diego Garcia (Indian Ocean). We can also follow-up with mechanized (heavier) units pretty quickly. Those units won't be enough to win a war, but it is enough to let whomever know that we're not screwing around. Notwithstanding the inability to fight a two-front war, we do spend the most money on our military by far, which results in not the biggest number of people, but the best arsenal, and--almost certainly--the best combined arms training. (Side note: I'm sure the IDF is pretty freakin' jacked as militaries go, but it's tiny compared to the US). 

FYI, that combined arms training is arguably unique to the US. The amount of work that goes into training our military from the highest staff levels down to the lowest private/seaman is remarkable compared to the rest of the world. That doesn't guarantee success--the enemy still has a vote--but it does mean that we're unlikely to run into the same kinds of trouble that Russia has run into in Ukraine.

Fighting even a one-front war against a major adversary (Russia or China) would require mobilization--and it would have at any time during the Cold War, too. We used to maintain a more significant defensive posture: e.g., in the Fulda Gap to prevent the Reds from pouring through Germany, and on the DMZ in Korea, to prevent the insane leaders of North Korea from being too insane. But realistically, that's not our current threat, and it doesn't make much sense to maintain that kind of defensive force. And even those defensive forces were never going to be enough to win the war. In Korea--the one I know more about because I was there--we were there to give our mainland forces a month to deploy. That was it: our goal was to survive for a month. (Also, the South Korean's military was generally more than 10x as large as our forces there). I suspect that is still the goal.

Currently, our military is populated with a historically large (not the biggest) number of combat veterans. That's useful, but they aren't veterans of the kinds of wars we're talking about. They are really good at clearing and holding cities from insurgents, but major force-on-force fighting isn't something we've done, really since Korea in the 50s. Even in Vietnam, we were primarily fighting light infantry battles, ordinarily not against a well-organized, state actor. We've trained on it a lot--and we still do--but another thing that is rapidly changing is the impact of surveillance and remote warfare on the battlefield. That's a big reason for everything bogging down in Ukraine. It is very difficult to mass for attacks without the enemy knowing what you are doing, and defending against it with remote actors: drones, artillery, and other long-range strike capability.

All of which is to say there's a lot of uncertainty about where things are headed, but the bottom line is that fighting a major adversary in any war would be brutal for all involved, and is something we should be trying to avoid (not at all costs--this isn't a Neville Chamerlain rant).

I think if we intended to strike Iran (in a significant way) for the attack it just conducted, we would have done so already, while their launching equipment was in the field and easy to target. That being said, if they set up to do it again, they have to be concerned that we're in the mix to come right at them because we now know where they are.

And one last comment on the wars of the last two decades: the military performed exceptionally well throughout. But the government's mission was not one that the military was well-suited for. If we had really wanted to democratize Iraq and Afghanistan, we would have had to commit far more non-military personnel than there was ever the political will to do. You don't democratize on the cheap, especially in places that have never had a taste of it before. In Afghanistan, the mission to get rid of Al Qaeda was a worthy one, but there was a big leap from that to trying to turn the place into a democracy.

My views on international relations are not quite Kissinger-style/Machiavellian, but we have had trouble reminding ourselves what realistic outcomes might be in various places (Kissinger struggled with that, too, even though he took a much more transactional view of what we did overseas).

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37603 on: October 02, 2024, 12:34:56 PM »
There is an interesting series on youtube about "world war 3" in which the Russkis invaded the Baltic states.

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