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On the "people aren't leaving cities" statement, citing 1 city that has lost population (NYC) doesn't refute the point.

Before COVID/Trump, the biggest examples were Philadelphia and Detroit (New Orleans discounted due too a unique reason).
Since then, NYC as a city and CA as a state has had more-than-usual emigration. 

And those people are moving to sun belt cities, obviously.  As they have been.

I kind of think both sides are wrong here, lol.  People are moving from NE/MW cities....but they're moving to other cities.

1. I cited well more than one city. Go back and take a peek.

2. You mean before the BLM riots mostly peaceful protests, right?

3. People are moving from "progressive" cities in favor of more moderate ones. That I will buy.

They are fleeing high crime, taxes, etc. in favor of a safer place to live.

I won't speak for anyone else, I don't recall anyone suggesting that in general people were fleeing all cities.

The original suggestion that sparked this part of the discussion, is that people were fleeing SOME cities (which is certainly true), and the implication was that people are fleeing progressive/liberal cities (which is also true in some cases, but no evidence has been provided to support that this is a trend across the entire country).

This is what sparked the discussion:

This I just do not understand.

Look at just about every large city in this country and all you see is disaster at the hands of those who "lead" them.

Maybe Badge meant to limit his discussion to the severely progressive/liberal cities. But he didn't. 

But even if they're disasters, the urbanization of America continues. Because that's where the jobs are. 

And as mentioned, many people who are fleeing these "cities" are merely fleeing to the suburban area surrounding said city. Heck, my parents did that decades ago, both before I was born (Chicago->Oak Park) and then moved MUCH further out to the west suburbs when I was 1 year old. Why? Because it was safer and the schools were better. 

It's why you've said you don't live in Austin. But you still live Austin-adjacent. 

It is not true.  If people are fleeing something, you would expect it to become a ghost town, or certainly a shell of what it once was. Is there any evidence that is happening at all? I haven't seen it, but I'm not a New Yorker and don't generally think about the place a lot. Their population is higher than it was 20 years ago, still double the next place.

except it is true....I go to New York City at least once a year as I have family/friends that have been living there for 15+ years.

New York City lost nearly 600,000 LEGAL residents from 2020 to July 2023. Roughly 6% of it's population. That trend is only continuing. 

And during COVID New York City was almost a ghost town, everything was locked down. That city truly failed the COVID response test and has horrible leadership- which is why it's lost 6 going on 7% of it's population since 2020.

except it is true....I go to New York City at least once a year as I have family/friends that have been living there for 15+ years.

New York City lost nearly 600,000 LEGAL residents from 2020 to July 2023. Roughly 6% of it's population. That trend is only continuing.

And during COVID New York City was almost a ghost town, everything was locked down. That city truly failed the COVID response test and has horrible leadership- which is why it's lost 6 going on 7% of it's population since 2020.

I would definitely think COVID affects thing. People may not want to live in one of the densest places in the country when thinking about airborne viruses. But you might expect that to be more of a one off and the population to stabilize, which it appears to be doing. Their housing prices are still probably the biggest problem - if you can buy a house in Houston for the same price as a closet in NYC, you are going to think long and hard about it.

Ah yes, Trump and company well known for their good natured acceptance of the results of elections

this is all complete and utter hyperbole. Trump challenged the election in the courts and lost in the courts. Just like Al Gore did in 2000. Trump continued to float evidence free based conspiracy theories that the election was stolen from him....just like Hillary Clinton did 2016. That cackling evil vile bitch still floats evidence free based conspiracy theories about why she lost in 2016 and RussiaGates to this day- 8 years later. If anything he's just learning from the truly pathetic Democrats and being truly pathetic and petty himself.

In both instances in 2000 and 2020, at the end of the day what happened? W became President in 2000 and Joe Biden became President in 2020. Oh that's right, because we have a constitution and checks and balances. A dictatorship in the United States isn't possible unless the individual states, legislature, courts, and military all go along with it- and that just ain't happening. Ever. 

That Orange Hitler Trump sure tried to stage an insurrection didn't he. He riled up a bunch of gun nuts to storm the capital and bring their guns and cause mayhem! Oh wait. He didn't. He told people to peacefully protest (literally tweeted that) - and these "right wing extremist terrorists" (LOL) forgot their guns at home and killed exactly.....nobody. Property damage + trespassing does not = an insurrection. Insurrection has a very narrow specific defined meaning. That most definitely was not an "insurrection" and anyone who says it was is just lying to themselves and is devoid of brain cells and critical thinking abilities.

Continues to amaze me that people are so f*cking stupid they actually still believe everything they see on cable news tv or in the propaganda print rags of record like the New York Times or Washington Post (owned by the richest man in the world, gee I bet they are totally impartial and run stories on Amazon's abusive monopolistic practices and mistreatment of workers and attempts at union busting....oh wait they're not and they don't).

this is all complete and utter hyperbole. Trump challenged the election in the courts and lost in the courts. Just like Al Gore did in 2000. Trump continued to float evidence free based conspiracy theories that the election was stolen from him....just like Hillary Clinton did 2016. That cackling evil vile bitch still floats evidence free based conspiracy theories about why she lost in 2016 and RussiaGates to this day- 8 years later. If anything he's just learning from the truly pathetic Democrats and being truly pathetic and petty himself.

In both instances in 2000 and 2020, at the end of the day what happened? W became President in 2000 and Joe Biden became President in 2020. Oh that's right, because we have a constitution and checks and balances. A dictatorship in the United States isn't possible unless the individual states, legislature, courts, and military all go along with it- and that just ain't happening. Ever.

That Orange Hitler Trump sure tried to stage an insurrection didn't he. He riled up a bunch of gun nuts to storm the capital and bring their guns and cause mayhem! Oh wait. He didn't. He told people to peacefully protest (literally tweeted that) - and these "right wing extremist terrorists" (LOL) forgot their guns at home and killed exactly.....nobody. Property damage + trespassing does not = an insurrection. Insurrection has a very narrow specific defined meaning. That most definitely was not an "insurrection" and anyone who says it was is just lying to themselves and is devoid of brain cells and critical thinking abilities.

Continues to amaze me that people are so f*cking stupid they actually still believe everything they see on cable news tv or in the propaganda print rags of record like the New York Times or Washington Post (owned by the richest man in the world, gee I bet they are totally impartial and run stories on Amazon's abusive monopolistic practices and mistreatment of workers and attempts at union busting....oh wait they're not and they don't).

I'm astounded that you can describe some of the efforts Trump made to overturn the election, then say the media is at fault for making people think Trump tried to overturn the election.

Good poinmt, thanks.  I know some split couples, but that is purely anecdotal, and I bet statistically you are correct.

I wondered if Trump made this split wider, I think he appeals more to men than women.

I'm trying to find the link. I think it was Reuters that used to have their exit polling online in a searchable format. It was great fir answering questions like these.

My main takeaway was that the gender gap was getting WAY too much discussion relative to its size/impact and the marriage gap was getting way too little.

In every demographic category married people were far more Republican than their single counterparts.

As far as Trump, I think he is much more of a symptom than a cause:
20 years ago and more non-college whites were a solidly Democratic voting bloc. Reagan famously appealed to some, most of the "Reagan Democrats" were non-college whites but Trump (in 2016) took more of them than any prior Republican.

This has been a developing rift in the Democratic coalition for decades. Non-college whites used to be reliable Democrats in large part because a substantial portion of them were in Unions. Union membership has been declining so that is part of it.

A bigger part, I think, is that non-college whites are fairly conservative on social issues pretty much across the board. As the Democratic electorate has become more college educated, and more minority, it has moved left on social issues to an extent such that a lot of those socially conservative non-college whites have become uncomfortable in that camp.

The biggest part, I think, is the immigration issue. President Clinton spoke of border security in several SOTU Addresses and the last pre-Trump Republican President was Amnesty enthuiast George W. Bush so this really wasn't a partisan issue until 2016.

Prior to that, many Democrats favored border security and limited immigration. It wasn't all that long ago that Bernie Sanders was still capable of acknowledging that open borders are a Koch Brothers proposal.

Back then that was considered a bad thing on the left while Republicans Bush and Boehner were pushing Amnesty.

By 2016 the Democrats were more-or-less fully committed to open borders. It had become something of a litmus test in Democratic Primaries with Clinton staking out a position in opposition to deportation that was tantamount to open borders.

Republicans filled the Immigration restrictionist void mostly due to Dave Brat taking out House Majority Leader Eric Cantor in a 2014 Primary. Previously Republican elected officials had pretty much served their Koch Brother type paymaster's cheap labor interests. The Brat/Cantor election showed that the Republican rank-and-file was NOT willing to go-along with top-down positions.

Trump saw this and rode it all the way to the White House. When the 2016 Primaries started there were something like 20 candidates (both parties combined) and only one of them took the side of the American People on the Immigration issue. It is not coincidental that he became President.