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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33978 on: July 05, 2024, 02:20:39 PM »
Probably gonna go here for linner tomorrow.

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Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33979 on: July 05, 2024, 02:21:46 PM »
Gold would be a good hold during hyperinflation for FUTURE wealth IFF the economy recovered.  It's a pure hedge, not really useful during hyperinflation.

I think silver rounds could be useful for buying things, maybe, and old 40% silver coins.  It would be more of a barter situation.  Imagine a farmer has a load of potatoes to sell, and he knows if he waits until tomorrow, he can get more "money" (which is nearly useless).  The idea would be to get and spend money as fast as possible.  I recall in Brazil they would pay workers each day and they'd spend it all on the way home when they had bad inflation.

You might be able to trade silver for a wad of money and then spend it immediately on food.  But we're talking about an economic collapse probably coupled with major civil unrest.  People would be stealing stuff.

847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33980 on: July 05, 2024, 02:22:16 PM »
One each of the first and split the other two.

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847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33981 on: July 05, 2024, 02:27:14 PM »


Trump torches Heritage Foundation's Project 2025 (msn.com)
Trump torches Heritage Foundation's Project 2025 (msn.com)
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33982 on: July 05, 2024, 02:28:51 PM »
If he knows nothing about it, why is he opining about it?

847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33983 on: July 05, 2024, 02:35:37 PM »
If he knows nothing about it, why is he opining about it?
I think it's more like he doesn't know where it all came from - the people behind it. I'm sure he knows what the Heritage Foundation is. If you've ever voted conservative, you get their mailings looking for $$$.
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847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33984 on: July 05, 2024, 02:49:33 PM »
One each of the first and split the other two.


The Pate is just an awesome dish. Can't wait.


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medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33985 on: July 05, 2024, 04:15:44 PM »
Per the first point, I think the big thing would be that a lot of oilfields that may only be profitable at a certain oil price would start dropping below that. As you point out, low oil prices would drastically reduce exploration and development of fields that aren't "easy". Which as I understand it, is many of the ones in the US. So the Saudis would likely be fine, while we'd feel the crunch in the US oil & gas industry. (Isn't there someone on the board from that industry? @Gigem or @Riffraft maybe? Would love to hear from an expert.)
I'm not an expert but my brother used to work on Oil Refineries (he is an engineer) so I've learned more than the average person.  

First I'll try to explain some things regarding "oilfields that may only be profitable at a certain oil price."  There really aren't many on a marginal basis.  

Current Oil price (just googled) is $83.12.  That is per barrel.  If you look REALLY closely, the quoted price that you hear on the news and see in the financial news is for something called "Light Sweet Crude".  

Light/Heavy IIRC is somehow related to the length of the hydrocarbon chains in the oil.  

Sweet/Sour IIRC is related to Sulphur content.  Ie, Sweet is low Sulfur and sour is high sulfur.  

The exact details aren't all that important just suffice to say that the price you see quoted is for the BEST oil.  Everything else sells at a discount to that price.  

Lets say that you (in California) and I (in Ohio) each own an oil well.  The marginal costs are typically very low to the point of being nearly insignificant but lets say that it costs us each $20/bbl to pump and store our oil and get it to the Point of Sale (POS).  Now lets say that your oil in California is high quality "Light Sweet Crude" while mine is crappy "Heavy Sour Crude".  

I don't know exactly what the discounts are but the details aren't important for this example, lets just say that my crappy oil sells at a 50% discount off the list price.  Further, lets round that $83.12 (see above) to an even $80 just to make the math easier for this example.  

Ok, based on all of that currently:
  • You are spending $20/bbl to sell oil for $80/bbl so you are making $60/bbl.  
  • I am spending $20/bbl to sell oil for $40/bbl so I am making $20/bbl.  

We can plug this into your comment about oilfields only profitable at a certain price.  My oil is break-even at a price of $40/bbl, yours is break-even at a price of $20/bbl.  Thus, even if the price drops by half, yours will still be profitable ($40>$20) while mine will break-even ($20=$20).  

The marginal costs are VERY low so as a practical matter, almost any existing field is going to be "profitable" at any reasonably plausible price.  The issue isn't existing fields, it is new ones.  I'll do another example:

Lets say that instead of owning oil wells, we each own property on which an oil well COULD be drilled.  Let's say that your property is a SoCal desert and the Oil under your property is near the surface.  Conversely, my property has a HARD layer of Limestone or Granite between the surface and the oil and the oil under my property is DEEP, thousands of feet below the surface.  

Sand is easy to drill through and I stipulated that your oil is near the surface anyway so your oil well can be installed relatively cheaply.  Limestone/Granite are MUCH harder to drill through and I stipulated that my oil is DEEP so my oil well will be much more expensive.  So for example:


Let's say it would cost $100,000 to install a well on your property and that well would produce 100bbl/month.  Then lets say that it would cost $1 Million to install a well on my property and that the well would produce the same 100bbl/month.  Currently:

  • Using an $80 price for Crude and $20 for pumping, storage, and transport, your well would earn you $6,000/month (100*$60).  At that rate you could pay off the $100,000 installation cost in a little under a year and a half and after that you'd have a nice $6,000/mo in extra cash (before taxes).  
  • Using the same $80 and $20, my well would also earn $6,000/month.  The problem is that my well costs 10x what yours costs so it would take me 167 months or almost 14 years to pay off the costs of installing the well.  
Yours is CLEARLY worth it.  Mine is questionable.  If my oil was the crappy oil from example #1, mine clearly wouldn't be worthwhile to install because the payoff period would be around 40 years.  However, mine IS worth using if it is already installed because once the $1M installation cost is paid that is a sunk cost and I might as well pump.   



medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33986 on: July 05, 2024, 04:38:15 PM »
More on Oil:

The major complication of the Oil industry is that both the supply AND the demand are fairly inelastic in the short-term:

Supply:
As explained above, almost all existing wells are marginally profitable at any realistic potential price.  What I mean here is that the cost of pumping the oil out of the ground, storing it, and transporting it to the Point of Sale is close to zero.  Ie, once you have the well, it is almost always profitable to pump.  Thus, in the short-term oil well owners don't really turn their wells off/on based on price movements.  The short-term supply pretty much is what it is.  

Demand:
The same thing happens here.  In the long-term you can buy a more efficient vehicle or move closer to work or take a WFH job to reduce your oil consumption if the price rises.  Conversely, if the price drops you might buy a less efficient vehicle, move further from work, or switch to a job where you have to go in.  In the short-term, you don't have that much choice.  If we wake up tomorrow and gas is double, or even 10X what it was yesterday, the vast majority of us are still going to drive to work in whatever car we already own.  

In the long-term both the supply and the demand are reasonably elastic.  On the supply side, there is oil under the ocean.  Deep water offshore rigs are INCREDIBLY expensive to construct.  Probably not worthwhile at $80/bbl but maybe worthwhile at $160/bbl and almost certainly worthwhile at $800/bbl.  The problem is that this takes time.  Those deep-water offshore rigs don't just appear and disappear as the price moves.  

Lets compare to a different good and lets use something fun, BEER! :beer::singing:

If the price of beer suddenly doubles or goes up to an order of magnitude, we have options.  For one thing, we don't HAVE to drink alcohol at all.  For another, if we still want to drink alcohol we can drink wine or bourbon or vodka or hard cider.  

Consequently, if the price of beer doubles, typically we would expect the prices of wine, bourbon, vodka, hard ciders, and other alcoholic alternatives to rise.  Then there are more complex second-order impacts.  Beer goes with Pizza while Red Wine goes with Steak and White Wine goes with fish so if the price of Beer goes up we would expect the demand for Pizza to drop while the demand for steak and fish rises.  

None of that translates well to gas.  Most of us can't just "not use gas".  We have to get to work.  We have to get groceries.  We can do some things around the margins to reduce use like combining trips or carpooling but we are still using gasoline.  Unlike with Beer where we have multiple options to replace it, other than Ethanol which has serious limitations there isn't really an alternative.  

Cincydawg

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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33988 on: July 05, 2024, 05:15:01 PM »

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33989 on: July 05, 2024, 05:20:09 PM »
If he knows nothing about it, why is he opining about it?
Never stopped him before...
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Mdot21

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33990 on: July 05, 2024, 07:19:56 PM »
Never stopped him before...
very true. but same can be said of most politicians. including our senile President.

Mdot21

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33991 on: July 05, 2024, 07:25:07 PM »
If he knows nothing about it, why is he opining about it?
he's not opining about it. he's merely responding to completely false and exaggerated corporate media claims that claim Project 2025 is a plan for a new third reich and either imply or outright suggest that Trump is firmly behind and part of Project 2025- when in reality he isn't and has absolutely nothing to do with it. it's a 962 page paper cooked up by the Heritage Foundation, which is a club that consists of a bunch of bible thumping jesus freak neo-cons....a club that Trump clearly doesn't belong to.

 

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