header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

 (Read 3035706 times)

847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 31224
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33264 on: June 18, 2024, 03:57:32 PM »
I don't consider Fox News to be far right. That would be Newsmax in my view.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

GopherRock

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 2874
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33265 on: June 18, 2024, 04:07:51 PM »
I don't consider Fox News to be far right. That would be Newsmax in my view.
They may not be far right nowadays, but they remain mouthpieces for what is left of the Republican Party.

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 14569
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33266 on: June 18, 2024, 04:09:29 PM »
How do you keep a Baptist from drinking all you beer on a fishing trip?

Invite another Baptist.
I was thinking of that one but didn't remember it correctly. Thanks! 

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 83105
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33267 on: June 18, 2024, 04:22:45 PM »
Baptists are anti-alcohol, you know. That's why they never say hi to each other in the liquor store :57:


Some are, maybe most, but not all, even on paper.  I think most of the anti-booze folks are in the countryside, while the suburban Baptists don't make a deal about it.


utee94

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 22289
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33268 on: June 18, 2024, 04:27:45 PM »
My inlaws are Baptist.  They weren't "practicing" for many years, and we enjoyed many margaritas and bottles of wine with them.  My FIL even had a really beautiful custom wine rack made and built-in to a custom sideboard for his dining room.

Then a few years later they decided to rejoin an active Baptist church, and began hosting small-group church dinners and whatnot at their house.  That custom wine rack completely disappeared, left a weird opening in the sideboard.  I never said anything about it, we still always had plenty of wine over at their house, but always from the back cupboard in the butler's pantry.

I suppose that's an example of virtue signaling.

MaximumSam

  • Guest
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33269 on: June 18, 2024, 04:29:15 PM »
It is a government expenditure.  It costs us all money.  That isn't a trick, it is called reality.  The "children of immigrants" collecting welfare are only "not immigrants" because we stupidly let their parents in.  You are again trying to make up your losses with volume and we are going broke.  There is an argument for high-paid immigrants but letting in MORE poor people is only adding to the misery of the poor people already here and costing every one of us money. 
The wall is a government expenditure. So is border patrol. So are regulating businesses to make sure they don't hire "illegals." This stuff costs money AND makes us poorer. That is the biggest problem with anti-immigration side - lots of emotion, but the math ain't mathin.'

My ancestors parents who were "stupidly let in" and were hardly the picture of wealth. I'd bet a nickel everyone who posts here has ancestors who were "stupidly let in." By your logic, the United States should have been a shithole country after a generation. Yet America grew to perhaps the biggest economy ever seen. Like I keep pointing out, your math is not working, and will never work, because it isn't based in reality.

The whole foundation is based in the idea that poor people can't change their lot by working hard, especially to make life better for their kids. It's also based in the idea that people who work hard and make money are somehow hurting other people. Both of these are bollocks, but they are popular, because competitiveness is real and there will be winners and losers. Anti-immigration sentiment is basically based in making sure the losers win. Not great for the country.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2024, 04:50:58 PM by MaximumSam »

ELA

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 22875
  • Liked:

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 83105
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33271 on: June 18, 2024, 04:31:40 PM »
I was raised Southern Baptist.  Our relatives who lived in the countryside were teetotalers.  None of them drank alcohol, nearly as I could discern.  In our suburban church, it just wasn't a deal, my Dad drank beer fairly often.  My mom didn't like the taste, but she would have some wine a few times.  My various cousins were all Baptists, still are I think, and some didn't, some did.

The church services at that country church were WAY different from ours.  

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 83105
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:

medinabuckeye1

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 10655
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33273 on: June 18, 2024, 04:48:35 PM »
On the first point, I don't necessarily think that all of these women are "controlled by the patriarchy". But it wouldn't shock me that some of them profess to have certain beliefs in public that suddenly go by the wayside once it might affect THEM and people they care about.

Similar to Catholics and birth control. The Church says don't use it. They consider themselves good upstanding members of the church. But when it comes to THEM, they don't want more kids so they do what they want. Like vegetarians who eat cheeseburgers "but only when they're drunk".

I would probably have put it better if I said that they're outwardly pro-life to not ruffle feathers in their communities. It's not that anyone is controlling them, but they have appearances to maintain, right? At church you say you're pro-life. When polled you say you're pro-life. But when you get in the ballot box, you keep that lifeline available in case you or someone you care about needs it.
-------------
Per the male-female divide on the issue, you might be right. I haven't studied it closely (b/c as a man I don't care). However I do think there's one wrinkle you didn't cover. Men can have either opinion on the matter "cost-free" since we don't have a uterus. Women cannot. So it's easier for a man to be pro-life because it isn't his body, and it's also easier for a man to say "I don't care" and be pro-choice because it's not his body. I do think whatever the overall opinions are within the gender divide, that for women it's far more personal of an issue. How that shakes out overall, I don't know. But I think we look at it differently, and I think that MAY affect voting patterns depending on its potential personal impact or lack thereof.
I didn't posit an alternative explanation because it is a complicated mess but we are so deep into this issue now that I feel like I might as well.  

Roe was a terrible decision.  I don't mean that on policy grounds, I mean it on legal grounds.  I don't really have a problem with the policy embraced by Roe (basically it was viability if you read the full decision).  What I DO have a problem with is the legal justification.  In order to find a "Constitutional Right" to Abortion, the Court started from the due process clause of the 14th amendment, text:
"No State shall . . .deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law".  

Ah, where is Abortion mentioned?  Well, it isn't but the justices came up with the idea that the "penumbras and emanations" of this clause created an unenumerated and previously unheard of "right to privacy".  Thus did Douglas rule in Griswold vs Connecticut that Connecticut's restrictions on Birth Control violated the US Constitution.  

My view of this has always been that if you need to use "penumbras and emanations" to get from the text to your desired ruling, you are reaching.  If SCOTUS can find a Constitutional right to an Abortion in the above cited text, then they can make up anything they want and we live in a Judicial Oligarchy rather than a Republic.  

Upthread @847badgerfan referenced that even RBG criticized Roe.  Speaking at the University of Chicago in 2013 she stated that the decision "seemed to have stopped the momentum on the side of change" and that she would have preferred that abortion rights be secured more gradually, in a process that included state legislatures and the courts.  

Ginsburg's criticism is, in my opinion, spot on.  Prior to Roe in 1973, the country had been moving toward permitting Abortion.  Between 1967-1973 Alaska, Hawaii, New York, and Washington repealed their Abortion bans and 13 other states liberalized theirs.  Ie, momentum was on the side of moving toward permitting Abortion.  Also in that era it really wasn't a partisan issue.  Catholics and Southerners were still mostly Democrats and they tended to be Pro-Life so there was a significant Pro-Life wing in the Democratic Party and there was also a significant Pro-Choice wing in the Republican Party.  The various Legislatures dealt with the question of where to draw the line.  

The Roe decision stopped all of that.  It imposed a fictitious "Constitutional" Right.  Almost immediately, everyone was effectively forced into either the pro-Roe or the Anti-Roe camps.  Instead of Legislatures debating the merits of life begins at conception vs 6-week ban vs 15-week ban vs viability vs third trimester, both sides got radicalized because the loudest voices tend to come from the wings and we ended up with two diametrically opposed camps:
  • Pro-Lifers for whom birth control is suspect at best and
  • Pro-Choicers for whom the holy right to an abortion cannot be infringed until the cord is cut (and maybe even for a few minutes after that).  

A second problem that relates to this issue is the fact that most Americans choose not to participate in Primaries.  Unfortunately, those who choose not to participate tend to be the moderates so the Democratic Primary Electorate is much more Left Wing than the Democratic Electorate at-large and the Republican Primary Electorate is much more Right Wing than the Republican Electorate at-large.  This has enabled hard-line positions on Abortion to effectively become a litmus test in both primaries.  For most of the ~50 years of Roe, it was difficult or impossible to win a Republican Primary without embracing the most hard-line Pro-Life position.  

I frankly think that a lot of Republican office-holders embraced the hard-line Pro-Life position without really thinking through the implications because they figured that with Roe in place, they would never actually be able to act on the position they claimed so who cares?  

Then, when Roe actually was overturned, as you stated, it came as a shock to a lot of people.  One group you didn't mention there was Republican State Legislators.  I think a lot of them signed on to various Pro-Life group positions as a matter of Electoral necessity and then realized when Dobbs came out that they were in a real pickle.  

Republican Legislators were then pressured to enact things like the "heartbeat bills" that criminalize Abortion at six weeks.  

I think that the votes (such as in Kansas) have largely been reactions to Republicans simply going too far with their bans.  Understand the mechanics here:  Pro-Life groups had supported Republicans for decades and when they finally got Dobbs, those groups wanted RESULTS for all their years of toiling in the wilderness.  Republican Legislators who are mostly more fearful of a Primary Challenge from their Right than a General Election Challenge from their Left were politically between a rock and a hard place.  So a bunch of Republican Legislatures gave the Pro-Life extremists what they wanted and the voters smacked it down.  

I think all of this could have been avoided if the Court had taken the position that Abortion simply isn't a Constitutional issue.  Then Legislatures would have debated and decided on a line in each state.  Some states would have enacted 6-week bans and others would have allowed Abortion up until the cord is cut.  I think we'd have arrived at consensus somewhere in the middle with a few exceptions of states far to one side or the other.  


Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 83105
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33274 on: June 18, 2024, 04:54:26 PM »
I think that's a nicely done summary and analysis.

medinabuckeye1

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 10655
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33275 on: June 18, 2024, 04:57:58 PM »
My ancestors parents who were "stupidly let in" and were hardly the picture of wealth. I'd bet a nickel everyone who posts here has ancestors who were "stupidly let in." By your logic, the United States should have been a shithole country after a generation. Yet America grew to perhaps the biggest economy ever seen. 
As I've said repeatedly, America wasn't a welfare state when we had massive immigration leading up to the 1920's.  We didn't have to worry about people coming here for the benefits because there weren't any benefits to come here for.  
The whole foundation is based in the idea that poor people can't change their lot by working hard, especially to make life better for their kids. It's also based in the idea that people who work hard and make money are somehow hurting other people. Both of these are bollocks, but they are popular, because competitiveness is real and there will be winners and losers. Anti-immigration sentiment is basically based in making sure the losers win. Not great for the country.
I've never said either that poor people can't change their lot nor that people who work hard and make money are somehow hurting other people so take this entire paragraph and use it against someone who actually said those things.  
That is the biggest problem with anti-immigration side - lots of emotion, but the math ain't mathin.'
Here is some math that you haven't addressed:

Social Security is losing money already.  Adding people below the median obviously makes that worse.  

More than half of immigrant headed households receive welfare.  Adding more of them makes that worse.  

You can't make up your losses on volume.  

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 83105
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33276 on: June 18, 2024, 05:04:35 PM »
I have read somewhere (probably something a comedian said, or Noam Chompsky) that the Social Security Trust Fund benefits from having more illegals here.  The idea is they use a fake SS number and have the FICA tax taken out of their checks, but they can't eventually get any money back with that number because the government checks on such things if you try and sign up.

The sounds possible to me, but I can't confirm it.

(I gather it's fairly easy to dream up a SS card good enough for a business to accept so as to hire you.  But that same number will bounce if you apply for benefits.)

Around here, I'm told you have to be here legally to qualify for welfare, but I can't check that either.

Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 16792
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33277 on: June 18, 2024, 05:08:23 PM »
Bold strategy


https://twitter.com/HeartlandSignal/status/1801632042544746812

Jesus Christ. I don't see that backfiring on anyone running for office at all. Let alone a white guy. Yikes. 

Give me what in the actual f*ck were they thinking for $200, Alex.

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.