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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32578 on: June 07, 2024, 01:54:08 PM »
That wasn't my point. My point was that fans are stupid and want something that's flashy but won't improve the team more than they want management to put in the work (which'll probably take 2-3 years of drafting) to actually build the team properly. And management is too weak to stand up to the fans so they get bullied into drafting some hotshot QB (and probably overpaying him) when they don't have the infrastructure elsewhere on the roster to succeed with him.

The GM knows that if they trade down the #1 pick and that's a QB who goes on to a better team that just needed a QB, absolutely light things up, they'll get blamed for missing out on him. Despite the fact that deep down inside they know that QB wouldn't have put up the same numbers on their roster without the surrounding talent.

Like you, I've watched a team (Da Bears) ruin QB careers for decades, by wasting high draft capital on a position that they don't have the surrounding talent to support.
Ok, I see your point and I agree.  

longhorn320

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32579 on: June 07, 2024, 01:56:16 PM »
All 51 should have their security clearances yanked for knowingly signing a politically motivated lie or being too lazy to make inquiries to determine it was a lie.
Theres gonna be quite a bit of that after Nov
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32580 on: June 07, 2024, 01:59:11 PM »
It was not literally a lie.  It was more clever than that.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32581 on: June 07, 2024, 02:03:08 PM »
I would trade down and draft linemen until I felt I had good lines.  Then I'd get LBs and safeties, and then maybe take a shot at a QB.  But I'd probably be fired as GM and the FNG would reap the rewards.
To an extent I agree with this and I chuckled at the "FNG" comment, but when talking about a team bad enough to have one of the first few picks in the draft I don't know that I'd focus on linemen or any other specific spot, I'd just increase picks by trading down and then take whoever I thought was the best available guy when my turn came almost without regard to position because if my team is THAT bad, I probably need the guy no matter where he plays.  
(I’d be interested in the numbers on OTs and pass rushers, I.e. are they THAT can’t miss, or does it feel that way because we don’t track them like QBs? Plus the fact that QB failure is both easier to spot and more dramatic because you only play one)
IMHO, there is no such thing as an absolute "can't miss" at ANY position because even to the extent that you can analyze on-field performance well enough to figure out how much is the guy being good and how much is his surrounding cast, you still have the problem of potential off-field issues and injuries.  

To me, that is a risk worth taking if you are a pretty good team where adding one individual superstar at the right position might push you from pretty good to SuperBowl but if you are dealing with a team that is winning less than 1/3 of their games (last year that was:
  • .118 Carolina, 2-15
  • .235 New England, 4-13
  • .235 Arizona, 4-13
  • .235 Washington, 4-13)
in that case, you need help all over the field and you are MUCH better off to trade your top-4 pick for two or three picks so that you can afford to absorb a bust.  

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32582 on: June 07, 2024, 02:17:24 PM »
I would trade down and draft linemen until I felt I had good lines.  Then I'd get LBs and safeties, and then maybe take a shot at a QB.  But I'd probably be fired as GM and the FNG would reap the rewards.
To an extent I agree with this and I chuckled at the "FNG" comment, but when talking about a team bad enough to have one of the first few picks in the draft I don't know that I'd focus on linemen or any other specific spot, I'd just increase picks by trading down and then take whoever I thought was the best available guy when my turn came almost without regard to position because if my team is THAT bad, I probably need the guy no matter where he plays.  IMHO, there is no such thing as an absolute "can't miss" at ANY position because even to the extent that you can analyze on-field performance well enough to figure out how much is the guy being good and how much is his surrounding cast, you still have the problem of potential off-field issues and injuries. 
Yeah, the problem is that if you trade down and you don't have near immediate success, AND the QB that you passed on just absolutely tears it up somewhere else, you look like a moron for missing out. And then you get your butt fired. 

Sort of like Da Bears looked like morons for trading up for Trubisky and not taking Mahomes. Which WAS probably moronic as I think Mahomes is better, but it wouldn't have shocked me at all if Mahomes would have busted in Chicago, without the right coaching staff and surrounding cast. And Trubisky might have been very successful in KC, albeit maybe not as successful as Mahomes has been.

847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32583 on: June 07, 2024, 02:26:07 PM »
Tough to mention Bears and QB success. Sid Luckman was a long time ago.

Yeah, McMahon was good. He wasn't a great QB. Just a great leader.

Since then?

Yeesh.
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bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32584 on: June 07, 2024, 03:17:59 PM »
I'm not making the case that QBs aren't that important. It's the most important position in the sport IMHO.

However I think a good QB with a poor surrounding cast is not going to be able to magically transform team performance, and will look like a much worse QB due to that surrounding cast. An average QB with an excellent surrounding cast will look like a much better QB than they really are.

The biggest point is that you have to build the team first to set any QB up for success. Focusing on the QB when the other pieces aren't in place won't get you there.
I think the first part kind of tells the tale. If a position is the most important one, people are going to often try to use resources to get the best one, and often think they should build around it. It can be such a fulcrum point for success that people are always gonna try that, independent of fan complaining.

The only way people will stop taking QBs high is if they are less important, or if there’s a real belief that being thrown into bad spots keeps damaging them beyond repair and capping success. And we’ve not reached that point.

I tend to agree that it would be wiser to build the cast first, but it does limit the ability to actually get a guy you want at the most important position on the field.

(I suppose that would be solved if bad teams just looked to trade back until they built up and then looked to trade up, but at the moment, good teams tend to trade back and bad ones up)


Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32585 on: June 07, 2024, 03:40:53 PM »
To an extent I agree with this and I chuckled at the "FNG" comment, but when talking about a team bad enough to have one of the first few picks in the draft I don't know that I'd focus on linemen or any other specific spot, I'd just increase picks by trading down and then take whoever I thought was the best available guy when my turn came almost without regard to position because if my team is THAT bad, I probably need the guy no matter where he plays.  IMHO, there is no such thing as an absolute "can't miss" at ANY position because even to the extent that you can analyze on-field performance well enough to figure out how much is the guy being good and how much is his surrounding cast, you still have the problem of potential off-field issues and injuries. 
I take your point about needing help everywhere.  I'm thinking if I have say the second pick, I could probably get 3+ second round picks for it in successive years, and pick up some really good linemen who are more apt to be good.

My thought it a very good line makes every other player on the field better.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32586 on: June 07, 2024, 04:19:39 PM »
The only way people will stop taking QBs high is if they are less important, or if there’s a real belief that being thrown into bad spots keeps damaging them beyond repair and capping success. And we’ve not reached that point.

I have. I spend less time looking at it in the pros, but I've watched multiple Elite 11 QBs (Danny Etling, Austin Appleby) get squandered because they were running for their lives constantly behind a porous O-line. I've watched as a coach's preferred QB (Elijah Sindelar) couldn't stay on the field ahead of David Blough because Blough was mobile enough to survive behind a porous O-line. 

I'm sure someone who watches the NFL more closely can point out the areas where a QB was drafted too high, on a bad team who couldn't block for him, forced to start too early (because of the draft capital invested in him), and fell off the map because they were damaged beyond repair. 



medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32587 on: June 07, 2024, 04:27:21 PM »
I have. I spend less time looking at it in the pros, but I've watched multiple Elite 11 QBs (Danny Etling, Austin Appleby) get squandered because they were running for their lives constantly behind a porous O-line. I've watched as a coach's preferred QB (Elijah Sindelar) couldn't stay on the field ahead of David Blough because Blough was mobile enough to survive behind a porous O-line.

I'm sure someone who watches the NFL more closely can point out the areas where a QB was drafted too high, on a bad team who couldn't block for him, forced to start too early (because of the draft capital invested in him), and fell off the map because they were damaged beyond repair.
The immediate one that comes to mind for me is Tim Couch.  I *THINK* he could have been a successful NFL QB but he was a pocket passer on an expansion team that couldn't create a "pocket" for him to operate in.  He spent his time in Cleveland running for his life.  IMHO, both the Browns and Couch would have been MUCH better off if the Browns had traded that pick to a team with at least a functional Oline.  Couch could have played in an actual pocket and the Browns could have taken 2-3 NFL quality players at other spots.  

847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32588 on: June 07, 2024, 04:43:18 PM »
I have. I spend less time looking at it in the pros, but I've watched multiple Elite 11 QBs (Danny Etling, Austin Appleby) get squandered because they were running for their lives constantly behind a porous O-line. I've watched as a coach's preferred QB (Elijah Sindelar) couldn't stay on the field ahead of David Blough because Blough was mobile enough to survive behind a porous O-line.

I'm sure someone who watches the NFL more closely can point out the areas where a QB was drafted too high, on a bad team who couldn't block for him, forced to start too early (because of the draft capital invested in him), and fell off the map because they were damaged beyond repair.



Chicago Bears. Latest is Justin Fields. But I'm not sure he is damaged beyond repair. He wasn't there long enough and I think the Bears f'd up royally.

Next up is Caleb Williams.
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847badgerfan

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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32590 on: June 07, 2024, 07:17:51 PM »
Tim Couch was Andre Ware.  If you watched their college careers, an inordinate percentage of their passes were within 3 yards of the LOS.  Inflated stats.  Easy completions.  Opened up the pretty, highlight-reel long bombs.  

Of course, the Lions and Browns franchises were hot garbage back then.  But those QBs were asked to do something completely different than what they did in college and to do something they hadn't shown they could do.  
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MaximumSam

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32591 on: June 07, 2024, 08:25:39 PM »
So quarterbacks handle the ball more than any other position (not counting the center) and impact the game more than any other position. The NFL has a hard salary cap, which means the talent on most teams is roughly equal. Therefore, having the best player at the most important position is the clearest path to having a good team.

 

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