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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32312 on: May 28, 2024, 03:15:23 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on May 28, 2024, 03:13:01 PM
A considerable number of people bending the religion to fit in with the times, sure. 
Gotta stay relevant. 
Christians really half-ass things, don't they?  We'll have the first gay pope any day now (j/k, I'll bet you a dollar there's been many). 
At least muslims stick to their script.  No word salad with them.
I get your point, but I'd also like to point out that gay does equal pedophile.

A lot of gays were gay when you couldn't tell anyone you were gay.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32313 on: May 28, 2024, 03:16:53 PM »
Uhhhhhh what? 

I'm wanting to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but.......did you mistype?  
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32314 on: May 28, 2024, 03:21:34 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on May 28, 2024, 02:55:15 PM
True.  Roughly 18 people in the country are this way.  Let's be sure not to exclude them.
I have no idea but neither do you.

To me the question comes down to defining life. If "it" isn't a life then, IMHO, "we" have no right to tell a pregnant woman what she can/can't do with it.  If "it" is a life then you can't kill it. 

Defining life is unavoidably religious or at least religious-adjacent but it is pretty clearly possible to be religious and think life starts at birth or to be atheist and believe that life begins much earlier.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32315 on: May 28, 2024, 03:23:05 PM »
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on May 28, 2024, 03:02:37 PM
I'm not in favor but I also don't think this is nearly as clear of a violation as you present. 

There are lots of restrictions on when and where you can buy alcohol and a lot of them are based on reducing alcohol abuse and alcoholism more than religion.  For example, in Ohio bars have to close at 2am.  It is common for states to have a state-mandated "last call".  AFAIK, no religion says you can drink but not after 2am on a Friday night/Saturday morning (Sat/Sun is different depending on the religion). 

My guess is that the intent of these laws is to reduce alcohol abuse/alcoholism by forcing people to stop drinking and go home at some point.  You could at least plausibly argue that forcing drunks to dry out one day a week is a non-religious societal good.  Now the choice of Sunday is suspect but one day a week is, IMHO, defensible and the specific day chosen is probably not infringing anyone's rights (if you accept that choosing a day is permissible). 

The history of this is that in England the State Church (Anglican, we call it Episcopal here) was tax-supported.  Similarly, in Ireland I know the schools were run by the Catholic Church with taxpayer support and it might still be that way.  In the scheme of rights, not being able to buy alcohol one day a week is a pretty minute infringement relative to having your assets confiscated (taxation) to support someone else's church. 
This is like the argument in Kelo v New London. It was an eminent domain case, which is supposed to only be used when a taking is occurring for public use. In this case, they were taking homes to be given to a corporation for different development. Well, through some legal gymnastics the words "public use" were stretched to "the city will make more in tax revenue from the new owners" and suddenly it was ok. 

Blue laws are obviously religious and if they put a fig leaf over it saying "well it also has this other slight benefit" that doesn't make it not religious. I don't for a second believe that the intent of these laws is to reduce alcohol abuse/alcoholism. 

Now, the reason it's a bad example is that SCOTUS has upheld blue laws as Constitutional (1961). But let's call a spade a spade.  
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847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32316 on: May 28, 2024, 03:23:43 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on May 28, 2024, 03:16:53 PM
Uhhhhhh what? 

I'm wanting to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but.......did you mistype? 
Probably crossing lines. Everyone knows that a lot of Catholic priests have been pedophiles. That's what I was getting at.

I sincerely doubt any of them were Popes, and I also doubt that any have been Gay.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32317 on: May 28, 2024, 03:29:16 PM »
266 'celibate' men over the centuries.....none of them were gay?  
Mkay.
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32318 on: May 28, 2024, 03:35:08 PM »
Quote from: betarhoalphadelta on May 28, 2024, 03:23:05 PM
This is like the argument in Kelo v New London. It was an eminent domain case, which is supposed to only be used when a taking is occurring for public use. In this case, they were taking homes to be given to a corporation for different development. Well, through some legal gymnastics the words "public use" were stretched to "the city will make more in tax revenue from the new owners" and suddenly it was ok.

Blue laws are obviously religious and if they put a fig leaf over it saying "well it also has this other slight benefit" that doesn't make it not religious. I don't for a second believe that the intent of these laws is to reduce alcohol abuse/alcoholism.

Now, the reason it's a bad example is that SCOTUS has upheld blue laws as Constitutional (1961). But let's call a spade a spade.
What about the 2am "last call" thing?

AFAIK there is no religious basis for that.

Sunday laws are different because I agree that there pretty clearly IS a religious basis for that. That said, the fact that there IS a religious basis still doesn't automatically mean that it violates the Establishment Clause.

Ie, there is a religious basis for making murder illegal but that doesn't mean that murder can't be prohibited without running afoul of the Constitution.
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32319 on: May 28, 2024, 03:37:01 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on May 28, 2024, 03:29:16 PM
266 'celibate' men over the centuries.....none of them were gay? 
Mkay.
I agree with you here and I'll add an additional reason. For centuries having a gay son would have been problematic for parents. That would give parents of sons who seemed gay a good reason to push those effeminate sons toward the priesthood.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32320 on: May 28, 2024, 03:38:05 PM »
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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32321 on: May 28, 2024, 03:38:41 PM »
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on May 28, 2024, 03:37:01 PM
I agree with you here and I'll add an additional reason. For centuries having a gay son would have been problematic for parents. That would give parents of sons who seemed gay a good reason to push those effeminate sons toward the priesthood.
Agreed.  And solely surrounded by men like 99% of the time.  
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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32322 on: May 28, 2024, 03:43:14 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on May 28, 2024, 03:38:05 PM
Whataboutism, folks.
It is called understanding how law and precedent work.

If you ever read transcripts of oral arguments at SCOTUS you'll see a whole lot of questions that boil down to "whataboutism". 

The Justices generally phrase them more eloquently but the essence of the questions is frequently "What about this hypothetical?"
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32323 on: May 28, 2024, 04:05:39 PM »
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on May 28, 2024, 03:43:14 PM
It is called understanding how law and precedent work.

If you ever read transcripts of oral arguments at SCOTUS you'll see a whole lot of questions that boil down to "whataboutism".

The Justices generally phrase them more eloquently but the essence of the questions is frequently "What about this hypothetical?"
That doesn't speak highly of them.
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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32324 on: May 28, 2024, 04:06:09 PM »
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on May 28, 2024, 03:35:08 PM
What about the 2am "last call" thing?

AFAIK there is no religious basis for that.

Sunday laws are different because I agree that there pretty clearly IS a religious basis for that. That said, the fact that there IS a religious basis still doesn't automatically mean that it violates the Establishment Clause.

Ie, there is a religious basis for making murder illegal but that doesn't mean that murder can't be prohibited without running afoul of the Constitution.
Yeah, and I understand a last call justification. That IMHO is clearly something that is intended to try to reduce alcohol abuse and help people who probably REALLY need to be cut off at some point because they won't do it themselves. 

I mean, the libertarian side of me chafes at it a little bit, but the pragmatic side says "yeah, that one is probably a good idea". 

And it's completely separate from any religious justification.

And the SCOTUS declaration of blue laws--which were more about forcing general business closures in 1961 than just alcohol-related--as Constitutional was based (IMHO I haven't read the whole thing) largely on the idea that a mandated "day of rest" had significant historical precedent for society that had long eclipsed the religious nature of resting on the sabbath. I'd have to read the opinion to form a more complete opinion on it, but I don't know that the issue interests me enough to read a 63-year-old SCOTUS opinion. 
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32325 on: May 28, 2024, 04:08:12 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on May 28, 2024, 04:05:39 PM
That doesn't speak highly of them.
How so? If they're going to make a decision that enshrines a new legal precedent (as one side or both are typically arguing for SCOTUS to do), shouldn't they press the attorneys on what the effects of that precedent in other cases might be? 
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