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Topic: In other news ...

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Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #25550 on: July 26, 2023, 10:14:31 AM »
More say violence could be necessary to restore Trump to White House: survey | The Hill

The report, titled “Dangers to Democracy” and released by the Chicago Project on Security Threats (CPST) earlier this month, found that 7 percent of Americans from April 6 to June 26 agree that “the use of force is justified to restore Donald Trump 
Donald Trump 
to the presidency.”

I would note that 7% is around the polling number for random comments.  You can ask "Would you rather be paid $10 or $100 for completing this poll?" and get 5-15% saying $10.  They don't read the question or spend any time considering a response.

FearlessF

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #25551 on: July 26, 2023, 10:23:18 AM »
ESPN College GameDay heads to Charlotte, North Carolina for Week 1 this season for UNC's anticipated clash with South Carolina at Bank of America Stadium, the network announced. Earlier this summer, 247Sports predicted every College GameDay location and noted that the Tar Heels and Gamecocks could be the pick by ESPN.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

utee94

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #25552 on: July 26, 2023, 10:23:56 AM »
There is no Such Thing as Terroir in Beer

Drink a few, then discuss.
You know, we have a Beer Thread...

But I will say, I pretty much agree with the article, and for all of the reasons outlined.  Making beer is more complex than making wine, and the final product of beer is more complex than wine.  So there's just not much opportunity for terroir to make it all the way through the process, in the same way it does for wine.

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #25553 on: July 26, 2023, 10:29:20 AM »
But I will say, I pretty much agree with the article, and for all of the reasons outlined.  Making beer is more complex than making wine, and the final product of beer is more complex than wine.  So there's just not much opportunity for terroir to make it all the way through the process, in the same way it does for wine.
I know you know quite a bit about wine, but I'm not sure I agree, while noting I don't know that much about beer.

Terroir of course is a broad term, you don't grow cab in Burgundy, or pinot noir in hot regions, mostly because of weather factors (which are part of terroir).  

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #25554 on: July 26, 2023, 11:18:22 AM »
Giuliani concedes he made ‘false’ statements about two Georgia election workers  | The Hill
Giuliani concedes he made ‘false’ statements about two Georgia election workers  | The Hill

I think Rudy has "issues" ...
Obviously in a civil complaint there can be a LOT of claims that turn out to not be true... But if even 25% of this is true, it suggests Rudy has lots of issues.

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #25555 on: July 26, 2023, 11:21:38 AM »
Obviously in a civil complaint there can be a LOT of claims that turn out to not be true... But if even 25% of this is true, it suggests Rudy has lots of issues.
I had a feeling Rudy was suffering from dementia some years ago.  In this case, I think his lawyers contrived a kind of fall back defense, much as Sidney Powell's lawyers claimed "no rational person would believe" what she attested.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #25556 on: July 26, 2023, 11:28:51 AM »
I know you know quite a bit about wine, but I'm not sure I agree, while noting I don't know that much about beer.

Terroir of course is a broad term, you don't grow cab in Burgundy, or pinot noir in hot regions, mostly because of weather factors (which are part of terroir). 
In general, the ingredients used in beer are much more substantially transformed by the brewing process than grapes in the winemaking process. Those transformations make it a lot harder for any sort of terroir to shine through. 

I can think of some examples, though:

  • Very crisp light-colored beers like pilsner or Kolsch. The barley used in these beers is very lightly treated during the malting process relative to any sort of darker malt, and perhaps terroir might be detectable. However, once you start throwing in darker malts, which have more dominant flavor, it will overwhelm any base grain. 
  • Beers which are dry-hopped. As the article points out, the same strain of hop (Cascade) will have very different characteristics if grown in the PacNW vs grown in the UK. If you're throwing that in a beer as a bittering agent, it won't matter much. But if you're using that as a dry-hopping ingreadient post-fermentation, differences would be more likely to come through. 
  • Spontaneous fermentation beers (such as those mentioned from Belgium) depend on the mix of natural yeast and other organisms in the air where a beer is fermented, and yeast is one of the MOST important determinants of beer flavor. Most beer is fermented with cultured strains of yeast that are maintained and consistent, and won't have terroir. But those few that are based upon spontaneous fermentation will be different depending on where they are brewed, what season they are brewed, etc. 


But as a general rule, beers made from the same recipe in San Diego vs Portland vs Asheville vs Boston will have little to no unique character based upon place, even if they try to source things like malt locally. The ingredients are too homogenized and too transformed to shine through in beer. 

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #25557 on: July 26, 2023, 11:35:35 AM »
I agree terroir is far less important in beer, I just would have thought making wine was far more complex  than beer.  I suppose it is a tough comparson and subjective.

The range of tastes one can get from wines even made from the same varietal can be extremely large depending on how it is vinified (and terroir of course).  A New Zealand sauvignon blanc if way different from a Sancere or a California or Argentinian wine made differently.  And that's from the same varietal.

Then you have the range of chardonnays that go from a crisp Chablis to an oaky buttery California chard to Champagne, which of course is made quite differently.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #25558 on: July 26, 2023, 01:32:43 PM »
"Complex" is a difficult term. I would say that the two are both complex, but in VERY different ways. 

That's why I focused on the degree to which the ingredients are transformed in the brewing process relative to winemaking. I think this is a lot of what strips the terroir out of beer. 

Brewing: 


  • You're growing barley and possibly other cereal grains. 
  • You're malting that barley (allowing it to germinate and then kilning it to stop the germination process). 
  • Depending on how you kiln it, you can end up with very pale malt or you can end up with caramelized malt, or roasted malt. The roasted malt in a stout, for example, blows away any mild variation in flavor that you'd have in a pale malt. 
  • The malt is then "mashed", meaning immersed in hot water where the enzymes inherent in the malt activate and convert the starchy malt to sugar. 
  • The liquid (wort) is pulled out from the mash, and boiled. At this point hops are typically added.
  • The hops, ESPECIALLY those added at the beginning of the boil, may be boiled for quite some time, extracting their bitterness and driving off their flavor and aroma. Only the hops added around the very end of the boil, or those added post-boil or post-fermentation (dry hopping), actually retain the flavor and aroma of the varietal. 
  • The wort is fermented and becomes beer. 


Winemaking:

  • You grow the grapes. 
  • You harvest the grapes, press them. They are either immediately removed from the skins (white wine) or they're left on the skins for a little bit (red wine), a couple of days IIRC. 
  • The grapes are naturally full of sugar (not starch) so you don't have to boil or otherwise transform them into another form before fermentation.
  • You add yeast and let them ferment. 
  • Post-ferment, some wines are aged in oak barrels, although some may be done entirely in stainless steel. 
  • Tremendous complexity and winemaker interpretation can then be involved in both knowing when the wine is "ready" as well as blending various amounts of wine to achieve an intended flavor profile. 


Thus in beer, the ingredients are significantly transformed at multiple steps of the process (malting, mashing, boiling), which is unnecessary for wine. 

I often suggest beer vs wine is akin to baking vs cooking. Baking is very process-oriented, and cooking is more interpretive. Baking requires quality ingredients, but how much the weather affects flour from wheat grown in Iowa vs Oklahoma, for example, isn't easily evident in the final product. Cooking, in many ways, is about combining ingredients transformed as little as necessary to make them shine. 

Wine is about taking the best grapes, from the places where weather/climate/soil are ideal, doing as little to transform them as possible, and letting them shine. Vintage to vintage, the "same" named wine from the same winery will taste different because the weather is different, so the grapes are different. Brewing is about combining largely standardized ingredients and pushing them through a tightly-controlled process to end up with the same result every time. Year to year, the "same" beer from the same brewery should taste identical. 

utee94

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #25559 on: July 26, 2023, 01:43:22 PM »
"Complex" is a difficult term. I would say that the two are both complex, but in VERY different ways.

That's why I focused on the degree to which the ingredients are transformed in the brewing process relative to winemaking. I think this is a lot of what strips the terroir out of beer.

Brewing:


  • You're growing barley and possibly other cereal grains.
  • You're malting that barley (allowing it to germinate and then kilning it to stop the germination process).
  • Depending on how you kiln it, you can end up with very pale malt or you can end up with caramelized malt, or roasted malt. The roasted malt in a stout, for example, blows away any mild variation in flavor that you'd have in a pale malt.
  • The malt is then "mashed", meaning immersed in hot water where the enzymes inherent in the malt activate and convert the starchy malt to sugar.
  • The liquid (wort) is pulled out from the mash, and boiled. At this point hops are typically added.
  • The hops, ESPECIALLY those added at the beginning of the boil, may be boiled for quite some time, extracting their bitterness and driving off their flavor and aroma. Only the hops added around the very end of the boil, or those added post-boil or post-fermentation (dry hopping), actually retain the flavor and aroma of the varietal.
  • The wort is fermented and becomes beer.


Winemaking:

  • You grow the grapes.
  • You harvest the grapes, press them. They are either immediately removed from the skins (white wine) or they're left on the skins for a little bit (red wine), a couple of days IIRC.
  • The grapes are naturally full of sugar (not starch) so you don't have to boil or otherwise transform them into another form before fermentation.
  • You add yeast and let them ferment.
  • Post-ferment, some wines are aged in oak barrels, although some may be done entirely in stainless steel.
  • Tremendous complexity and winemaker interpretation can then be involved in both knowing when the wine is "ready" as well as blending various amounts of wine to achieve an intended flavor profile.


Thus in beer, the ingredients are significantly transformed at multiple steps of the process (malting, mashing, boiling), which is unnecessary for wine.

I often suggest beer vs wine is akin to baking vs cooking. Baking is very process-oriented, and cooking is more interpretive. Baking requires quality ingredients, but how much the weather affects flour from wheat grown in Iowa vs Oklahoma, for example, isn't easily evident in the final product. Cooking, in many ways, is about combining ingredients transformed as little as necessary to make them shine.

Wine is about taking the best grapes, from the places where weather/climate/soil are ideal, doing as little to transform them as possible, and letting them shine. Vintage to vintage, the "same" named wine from the same winery will taste different because the weather is different, so the grapes are different. Brewing is about combining largely standardized ingredients and pushing them through a tightly-controlled process to end up with the same result every time. Year to year, the "same" beer from the same brewery should taste identical.

Yes to all of this.

And regarding the bit highlighted, this is why my friend Chip who owns and operates the Live Oak Brewery here in Austin, always says that Budweiser is the best brewer on the planet.  Their beers taste identical batch to batch, line to line, site to site, location to location, all around the world.

Not the best BEER in the world, but the best BREWER, for sure.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #25560 on: July 26, 2023, 01:55:42 PM »
Yes to all of this.

And regarding the bit highlighted, this is why my friend Chip who owns and operates the Live Oak Brewery here in Austin, always says that Budweiser is the best brewer on the planet.  Their beers taste identical batch to batch, line to line, site to site, location to location, all around the world.

Not the best BEER in the world, but the best BREWER, for sure.
Yep. 

And highlights a difference. With beer, you're getting malt and hops that are different year-to-year. Malt from one crop may have a different starch content from a previous season. Hops from one season may contain different concentrations of alpha acids. For them, you also add in the variance of rice crops. 

But a brewery like Budweiser is adjusting their process to make those differences invisible. They take different ingredients and aim to make identical beer. Most small craft breweries are trying to adjust to smooth those differences, Budweiser is trying to make them disappear. 

Takes a hell of a lot of science, but it's also a completely different mindset to what a winery is trying to do. 

MrNubbz

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #25561 on: July 26, 2023, 02:03:55 PM »
Yep.

And highlights a difference. With beer, you're getting malt and hops that are different year-to-year. Malt from one crop may have a different starch content from a previous season. Hops from one season may contain different concentrations of alpha acids. For them, you also add in the variance of rice crops.
The ingredient they should have left out was Dylan Mulvaney
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Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #25562 on: July 26, 2023, 02:11:23 PM »
Winemaking:

  • You grow the grapes.
  • You harvest the grapes, press them. They are either immediately removed from the skins (white wine) or they're left on the skins for a little bit (red wine), a couple of days IIRC.
  • The grapes are naturally full of sugar (not starch) so you don't have to boil or otherwise transform them into another form before fermentation.
  • You add yeast and let them ferment.
  • Post-ferment, some wines are aged in oak barrels, although some may be done entirely in stainless steel.
  • Tremendous complexity and winemaker interpretation can then be involved in both knowing when the wine is "ready" as well as blending various amounts of wine to achieve an intended flavor profile.
To me, this is pretty over simplified, but it covers the basics.  What about malolactic fermentation?  Secondary fermentation?  Riddling?  Type of oak barrels used and for how long?  Making a rose'?  Which yeast to use?  Which alcohol level to achieve?  What kind of cork to use?  Which pretty label do you pay for?



Four wine makers given the exact same batch of grapes COULD make rather different wines from them.

utee94

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #25563 on: July 26, 2023, 02:31:21 PM »
Winemaking:

  • You grow the grapes.
  • You harvest the grapes, press them. They are either immediately removed from the skins (white wine) or they're left on the skins for a little bit (red wine), a couple of days IIRC.
  • The grapes are naturally full of sugar (not starch) so you don't have to boil or otherwise transform them into another form before fermentation.
  • You add yeast and let them ferment.
  • Post-ferment, some wines are aged in oak barrels, although some may be done entirely in stainless steel.
  • Tremendous complexity and winemaker interpretation can then be involved in both knowing when the wine is "ready" as well as blending various amounts of wine to achieve an intended flavor profile.
To me, this is pretty over simplified, but it covers the basics.  What about malolactic fermentation?  Secondary fermentation?  Riddling?  Type of oak barrels used and for how long?  Making a rose'?  Which yeast to use?  Which alcohol level to achieve?  What kind of cork to use?  Which pretty label do you pay for?



Four wine makers given the exact same batch of grapes COULD make rather different wines from them.

Variants of all of those are present for brewing as well, and then some.  Bwar kept it VERY simple but a non-exhaustive list includes a variety of top-fermenting yeasts for ales, a variety of bottom-fermenting yeasts for lagers, but then there are brewers that use lager yeasts at ale fermenting temps (steam beers fit here). And there's bottle fermenting.  And there's wild yeasts across all of the farmhouses in Belgium and around the world, but there's also carefully controlled yeasts, there's wet-hopping and dry-hopping, with over 200 varieties of hops that can be used, there's toasted malt, roasted malt, smoked malt, and that malt is typically barley but could be any cereal grain and they all taste different in the final product, there's adjuncts like corn and rice, then there's aged beers in oak barrels, used wine barrels, used whiskey barrels, and there's all kinds of different alcohol level targets from 2% to 20%.



 

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