Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

as far as the moon landing is concerned some of us stayed up all night with Walter Cronkite to the final moment of landing

its very real to me and Im very proud to be a member of the country that did this

Me too

(Note that the below is at least partly Devil's Advocate...)
First I'll stipulate that landing a man on the moon and bringing him home safely is one of the most technologically impressive feats that humanity has ever done. My hat is off to all of the scientists, engineers, technicians, assembly/mission personnel, astronauts themselves, etc etc etc that made it happen. It's astounding and they should ALL be proud of what they accomplished.

But...

I might ask why we went to the moon? Well, it was because we were in a space race. Why? Because we had to prove that capitalism was better than communism, so we couldn't let the Russians beat us, right?

And so we won. But I'd argue it proved nothing about capitalism vs communism, or about freedom vs totalitarian regimes.

How capitalist was it, exactly?

• There was no ROI. Nobody ever sold this as "look at how much money we'll make from the moon". Nobody sought investment. There was no businessperson who looked at the plan and said "oh, I'll invest in equity shares of THAT new company!"
• There was no choice in funding. The government forcibly extracted money--the equivalent of a quarter of a trillion 2020 dollars--to finance a project that clearly the taxpayers weren't choosing to spend their own money on voluntarily. 
• There was no follow-up. It's not like we used the moon for strategic or military reasons. It's not like we used it as a jumping-off point to colonize the solar system. It's not like we went to Mars next. We win, we declared victory, and then... Got bored. It underscores that there was no ROI.
• If it's expensive, pointless, has no return, and is abandoned once politicians find something else shiny, it is what it is--a feather in nationalist caps. And nothing more.

So let's see. Government stole resources from its citizens. It used them on a project that had no economic return. Once it could declare a nationalist victory, it abandoned future emphasis on the project and nobody in the world has been back to that lifeless rock in over 50 years. 

That doesn't sound like something a capitalist would do... In fact, it sounds exactly like something a communist nationalist would do!


We didn't beat the Russians with capitalism. We just played their own game better than they did. 

(Note that the below is at least partly Devil's Advocate...)
First I'll stipulate that landing a man on the moon and bringing him home safely is one of the most technologically impressive feats that humanity has ever done. My hat is off to all of the scientists, engineers, technicians, assembly/mission personnel, astronauts themselves, etc etc etc that made it happen. It's astounding and they should ALL be proud of what they accomplished.

But...

I might ask why we went to the moon? Well, it was because we were in a space race. Why? Because we had to prove that capitalism was better than communism, so we couldn't let the Russians beat us, right?

And so we won. But I'd argue it proved nothing about capitalism vs communism, or about freedom vs totalitarian regimes.

How capitalist was it, exactly?

• There was no ROI. Nobody ever sold this as "look at how much money we'll make from the moon". Nobody sought investment. There was no businessperson who looked at the plan and said "oh, I'll invest in equity shares of THAT new company!"
• There was no choice in funding. The government forcibly extracted money--the equivalent of a quarter of a trillion 2020 dollars--to finance a project that clearly the taxpayers weren't choosing to spend their own money on voluntarily.
• There was no follow-up. It's not like we used the moon for strategic or military reasons. It's not like we used it as a jumping-off point to colonize the solar system. It's not like we went to Mars next. We win, we declared victory, and then... Got bored. It underscores that there was no ROI.
• If it's expensive, pointless, has no return, and is abandoned once politicians find something else shiny, it is what it is--a feather in nationalist caps. And nothing more.

So let's see. Government stole resources from its citizens. It used them on a project that had no economic return. Once it could declare a nationalist victory, it abandoned future emphasis on the project and nobody in the world has been back to that lifeless rock in over 50 years.

That doesn't sound like something a capitalist would do... In fact, it sounds exactly like something a communist nationalist would do!


We didn't beat the Russians with capitalism. We just played their own game better than they did.

Agree that it didn't prove anything in favor of capitalism, but disagree that there was no ROI.

It established the USA for decades as the preeminent master of Space.  It created awe and, yes, fear, in other nations, that served the USA well for decades in its endeavors for extending its belief system-- its "brand"-- to large areas of the globe.  It's an intangible but highly valuable asset, not unlike "goodwill" in corporate terms.

And that's not even counting the ancillary capitalistic benefits that came from turbo-charging numerous industries to support.  Like, where would our nation be, without Tang????

Agree that it didn't prove anything in favor of capitalism, but disagree that there was no ROI.

It established the USA for decades as the preeminent master of Space.  It created awe and, yes, fear, in other nations, that served the USA well for decades in its endeavors for extending its belief system-- its "brand"-- to large areas of the globe.  It's an intangible but highly valuable asset, not unlike "goodwill" in corporate terms.

And that's not even counting the ancillary capitalistic benefits that came from turbo-charging numerous industries to support.  Like, where would our nation be, without Tang????

Good points. And why I said it was partially Devil's Advocate. Arguing just to argue. Or as one poster puts it, stirrin' the pot...

I'd even add that it was a source of inspiration to a lot of Americans. Especially Americans who were brought up in postwar nationalism and called these accomplishments their own because of where they were born. 

A lot of good things came out of it. 

But it's not like most Americans at the time had either a choice to do it or a hand in making it happen. 

I sorta wish these decisions as written would be based on the law and no bring in a bunch of "Well it would be better if ...".

I find that rare.

You are correct, our System enables Congress to tax us and spend monies as our representatives.  I don't view it as theft, even though I know much is spent in ways I dislike.

And of course I don't HAVE to pay taxes ...

I sorta wish these decisions as written would be based on the law and no bring in a bunch of "Well it would be better if ...".

I find that rare.

Where is there a law that states anything about student loan forgiveness?

The law states that only Congress can appropriate funds. #46 ran on a platform that included student loan forgiveness, knowing full-well he'd never get it through Congress.

pretty sure Cindy likes me

Well she's been known to swing a club