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Topic: In other news ...

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Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24024 on: May 26, 2023, 02:43:36 PM »

utee94

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24025 on: May 26, 2023, 02:44:17 PM »
My first trip ever to NYC was in the summer of 1994, right after college graduation, and it was indeed a crimeridden disgusting shitheap of a town.

I still loved it for its energy, its liveliness, and I've never been to another place that felt anywhere close to it.  But the city itself had a lot of problems.

Nowadays it seems almost a theme park by comparison.  Much cleaner, more livable, and even a little more friendly I'd say.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24026 on: May 26, 2023, 02:50:24 PM »
The estimates for how many Americans would have died assaulting mainland Japan are frequently over estimated, or just misquoted.  An original estimate was "up to half a million casualties".  This got reported in histories by some as a million, but it's casualties, not KIA.  And that estimate was downward revised in later estimates.  And of course, nobody knew for sure.
True, but when Japan surrendered and the occupation began the US planners discovered that the Japanese were actually more well prepared and equipped than they had believed. They didn't realize it but the Japanese had realized that an invasion of their home islands was inevitable by mid 1944 and they started hoarding resources to make it an epic battle.

They had explosive-laden suicide boats hidden near probable invasion beaches and intended to use them against assault boats loaded with troops. Things like this would have led to horrific casualties.

They also had plans to use women and children as suicide Bombers by having them carry grenades to American troops. Honestly, that probably wouldn't have been terribly effective at killing American troops but it would have turned them into monsters. After that happened a few times word would have gotten out and then GI's would have been wasting old women and little kids at 100 yards rather than taking the risk.

When Pearl Harbor was attacked Halsey was returning to Pearl Harbor aboard USS Enterprise. When Enterprise entered the harbor a day or two later Halsey looked at the carnage and said:
"When we get done with these people they will only speak Japanese in hell."
If we'd have invaded Japan that may have come true.

The bombs saved millions of lives and most of them were Japanese.

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24027 on: May 26, 2023, 03:01:34 PM »
Incidentally, the Japanese tactic of not resisting the initial landings had been practiced before Okinawa.  Guadalcanal was the first example, though in the case the Japanese troops were mostly construction troops.  Iwo Jima is an example where the Japanese hunkered down and waited.  

Operation Downfall - Proposed Invasion of Japan | Imperial War Museums (iwm.org.uk)

The casualty rate on Okinawa was 35%; with 767,000 men scheduled to participate in taking Kyushu, it was estimated that there would be 268,000 casualties. 


MrNubbz

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24028 on: May 26, 2023, 03:25:52 PM »
When I was a kid my dad used to refer to what he called "the Ho Chi Minh, how to beat the Americans book".  The thing is, as I learned more about the Pacific War I learned that the book wasn't actually invented by Ho Chi Minh, it was invented by the Japanese and should probably be called the "Hirohito book of how to beat the Americans."
Well he could have started by not believing himself GOD and by listening to Yamamoto - who went to Universities in the USA evidently and knew the country had potential

What worked for Ho Chi Minh did NOT work for Hirohito because the US simply didn't give Hirohito enough time.  This strategy is ultimately dependent on the US not pouring in enough resources to win BEFORE US public support declines to problematic levels.  US leadership in 1945 understood this.  They planned the invasion for November, 1945 because that was as soon as they could do it and they KNEW that they were up against a clock. 
What worked for HO Chi Minh is 1st off he had Russia/China both on his side and in close proximity and supporting/supplying him as opposed to Hirohito. Secondly HO hadn't sneak attacked a country not officially at War with them thus stiffening their resolve. And that nation wasn't all in against HO like it was agaist the self proclaimed GOD. So there are 3/4 variables that were not comparable. Had the script been flipped I'm sure,HO versus China/USSR/USA after he ordered a sneak attack things would have been over in short order. And I had read that HO really wanted assitence from the USA for independence vs France and maybe it worx out differently if Washington brokers it's Independence
"It is the duty of the  Patriot to protect his country from it's government" - Thomas Paine

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24029 on: May 26, 2023, 03:39:51 PM »
One factor in the bombing campaigns was an over promise given earlier in the war by folks like Bomber Harris and Lemay.  That concept was that strategic bombing could end a war almost by itself.  One stat that amazes me is that German war materiel production hit its zenith in November, 1944.  No doubt it was less than it would have been without bombing (Germans had to produce antiaircraft weapons and fighters to resist that as well).  But the daylight "precision" bombing was not practical.  So, they resorted to area bombing, and then fire bombing.  The first wave would drop HE and the second would drop incendiaries creating a fire storm.

If the A bomb was unethical, fire bombing was as well.


Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24030 on: May 26, 2023, 03:55:55 PM »
One factor in the bombing campaigns was an over promise given earlier in the war by folks like Bomber Harris and Lemay.  That concept was that strategic bombing could end a war almost by itself.  One stat that amazes me is that German war materiel production hit its zenith in November, 1944.  No doubt it was less than it would have been without bombing (Germans had to produce antiaircraft weapons and fighters to resist that as well).  But the daylight "precision" bombing was not practical.  So, they resorted to area bombing, and then fire bombing.  The first wave would drop HE and the second would drop incendiaries creating a fire storm.

If the A bomb was unethical, fire bombing was as well.
one is not like the other. how many bombs were dropped in those fire bombings runs? probably...a lot.

Two A bombs alone....not bombing runs...two bombs...killed an estimated 200,000 people...with many of them incinerated to hell and others dying later on from radiation poisoning or having serious long term defects/cancers. 

just my two pennies, but I don't think nuclear weapons should've ever been built let alone used. 

I pray to god they are never used again. Not a lot actually frightens me. Nuclear weapons do.

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24031 on: May 26, 2023, 04:00:23 PM »
I think whatever killed a lot of folks is like another thing that killed a lot of folks.  My point here is that we did fire bomb Germany and the results were roughly comparable to using an atomic bomb.  Ergo, we would likely have used the A bomb on Germany.  The genesis of the project was directed at Germany (the letter Einstein signed).

The existence of nukes arguably prevented a third major European war in the 1950s and 1960s.  

FearlessF

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24032 on: May 26, 2023, 04:00:27 PM »
what Hitler was doing was worse
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24033 on: May 26, 2023, 04:07:38 PM »
what Hitler was doing was worse
ya think. lol.

Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24034 on: May 26, 2023, 04:08:32 PM »
I think whatever killed a lot of folks is like another thing that killed a lot of folks.  My point here is that we did fire bomb Germany and the results were roughly comparable to using an atomic bomb.  Ergo, we would likely have used the A bomb on Germany.  The genesis of the project was directed at Germany (the letter Einstein signed).

The existence of nukes arguably prevented a third major European war in the 1950s and 1960s. 
kind of amazing to me the nukes never went off in the 50s and 60s. wonder how many times it was a ~unacceptable vulgar term for part of female anatomy~ hair close to happening. of course none of us would probably be alive right now if they did. so thank god for that. 

bayareabadger

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24035 on: May 26, 2023, 04:49:02 PM »
kind of amazing to me the nukes never went off in the 50s and 60s. wonder how many times it was a ~unacceptable vulgar term for part of female anatomy~ hair close to happening. of course none of us would probably be alive right now if they did. so thank god for that.
There’s a good story about it happening over in Russia.

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24036 on: May 26, 2023, 04:53:57 PM »

medinabuckeye1

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24037 on: May 26, 2023, 04:58:41 PM »
This site, IMHO has great info. One of the people connected with the site is one of the authors of Shattered Sword which is a fantastic book about Midway.

The tab I linked is entitled Grim Economic Realities and highlights the ridiculous position Japan put themselves in. Some highlights:

Country % of Total Warmaking Potential
United States 41.7%
Germany 14.4%
USSR 14.0%
UK 10.2%
France 4.2%
Japan 3.5%
Italy 2.5%
Seven Powers (total) (90.5%)

The above is circa 1937. By 1945 the US was over 50% of global GDP. Even in 1937 the US exceeded the next three. Japan's miniscule economy (compared to their enemies) gave them no chance.

On the A-Bomb:
"The final evidence of this economic mismatch lies in the development of the Atomic bomb. The Manhattan Project required an enormous commitment on the part of the United States. And as Paul Kennedy states, "...it was the United States alone which at this time had the productive and technological resources not only to wage two large-scale conventional wars but also to invest the scientists, raw materials, and money (about $2 billion) in the development of a new weapon which might or might not work." In other words, our economy was so dominant that we knew we could afford to fund one of the greatest scientific endeavors in history largely from the 'leftovers' of our war effort! Whatever one may think morally or strategically about the usage of nuclear weapons against Japan, it is clear that their very development was a demonstration of unprecedented economic strength."





 

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