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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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FearlessF

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I'm guessing Israel just needed an excuse - of course that excuse has been laying around for decades, they just decided the time was right
perhaps it was just for this stated reason, I guess I hope so, but I'm not that sure 
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

FearlessF

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I honestly had no idea that Iran had a population of 90 million.  Much larger than I thought.  If I had to guess, I would've said maybe 30 million.  FYI, Canada only has 30 million in comparison. 


what difference does this number make?
what if the number was 30 million or 130 million?  Would that change anything?
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

jgvol

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I'm guessing Israel just needed an excuse - of course that excuse has been laying around for decades, they just decided the time was right
perhaps it was just for this stated reason, I guess I hope so, but I'm not that sure

Bingo.  Hussein - eliminated.  Hamas/Gaza -- eliminated.  Assad/Syria -- eliminated.

Hellloooo IRAN!

It's not, and never was about nukes -- regime change is the name of the game.

FearlessF

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yup, the Israelis are on a roll and no one is slowing them down, why not just keep rolling

Paton wanted to keep rolling at the end of WWII and take on the Russians
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Gigem

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what difference does this number make?
what if the number was 30 million or 130 million?  Would that change anything?
90 million bullets are a lot more than 30 million bullets.....j/k.....

I guess I'm just saying that I had no idea their population was that large.  

FWIW Iran has a population bigger than Germany, France, UK, and Italy, Spain.  
And since I'm looking at population charts, I had no idea that Pakistan, Nigeria, and Bangladesh were so large.  

MikeDeTiger

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Need I remind all of you that there was a deal in place in 2015 to keep Iran from doing any uranium enrichment above 20% prior to 2030, and the current CiC tore it up in 2017.

And I'd remind you that Iran was repeatedly found to have violated that deal, meanwhile we dumped truckloads of cash on them to help ease their conscience as they violated the pact.  

FearlessF

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why would Tucker care if Cruz had been studying population charts or not?
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

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Ethiopia, Indonesia, South Africa, Vietnam, all perhaps larger than many think in terms of population.

Vietnam has over 100 million residents.  Ethiopia over 135 million, mostly Christians.

MikeDeTiger

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Not one of us "everymen" know jack shit, never will....

You could be 100% correct, and Iran is "weeks" away this time... 

I'm curious, if this is your genuine stance, why argue about it?  May as well just say we don't know anything for sure and leave it at that.

It seems clear you favor one narrative over other alternative narratives.  That's fine, you're certainly correct to note we don't know anything first-hand.  It just seems better to support your claims by pointing out either supporting evidence for your view and/or the flaws of opposing positions.  Do I take it you don't believe the IAEA's reports--and those of our own intel agencies--that Iran repeatedly violated their agreement about what they'll do with uranium, or that Israel didn't really find a way to load the Stuxnet virus in the software that controlled Iran's centrifuge cascades in 2012, which destroyed over 1000 of them and set their nuclear development back years, or that Israel kept assassinating Iran's top nuclear scientists subsequent to that after reports indicated they were getting too close again?  

Again, if so, fair enough.  If you don't believe intel agencies, especially international ones, I can't say I don't sympathize.  I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from, so I'm interested in elaboration beyond what you've already repeated here.  

FearlessF

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wouldn't it just be WAY easier to simply purchase a nuclear warhead and missiles from North Korea, China, Russia or some other stupid country?
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

MikeDeTiger

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To follow my own advice, in order to clarify my own stance:

I accept the timeline of multiple claims for the past decade and a half that Iran is "close" or at least "too close for comfort."  As opposed to the theory that this is BS for the sake of nothing more than regime change, I believe that timeline is better explained by other events, namely, Israel's repeated intervention, including events I named above.  I'd also note that the two things aren't mutually exclusive.  Israel could have regime change as a goal and be thwarting Iran's nuclear efforts when they are legitimately too close.  

I don't want to put words in utee94's mouth, but it seems like his position is a more modest one than mine.  I don't see him claiming anything about previous claims that Iran was too close.  He seems to be saying previous claims are irrelevant to the fact that Iran is enriching uranium beyond the point of usefulness for anything other than nuclear weapons, and wants an explanation as to why that's occurring, if it's not weapons-related.  Logically, this is valid.  Whatever we believe about intel claims about Iran in the past can certainly have weight on our opinion about current claims, but does not have logical bearing on the truth of a current claim.  

I think I understand your point, which is, effectively, we've seen this movie before and it's always a nothing-burger.  I'm trying to note that, pending the veracity of certain reports, nothing-burgers were the result of actions, not the initial state of affairs.  

YMMV.  I'm just trying to civilly state my stance and make sure I'm understanding yours.  

GopherRock

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And I'd remind you that Iran was repeatedly found to have violated that deal, meanwhile we dumped truckloads of cash on them to help ease their conscience as they violated the pact. 
The same people who claimed Iran was violating the deal are the same ones who are now itching to get the US into another military quagmire in the Middle East. 

jgvol

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I'm curious, if this is your genuine stance, why argue about it?  May as well just say we don't know anything for sure and leave it at that.

It seems clear you favor one narrative over other alternative narratives.  That's fine, you're certainly correct to note we don't know anything first-hand.  It just seems better to support your claims by pointing out either supporting evidence for your view and/or the flaws of opposing positions.  Do I take it you don't believe the IAEA's reports--and those of our own intel agencies--that Iran repeatedly violated their agreement about what they'll do with uranium, or that Israel didn't really find a way to load the Stuxnet virus in the software that controlled Iran's centrifuge cascades in 2012, which destroyed over 1000 of them and set their nuclear development back years, or that Israel kept assassinating Iran's top nuclear scientists subsequent to that after reports indicated they were getting too close again? 

Again, if so, fair enough.  If you don't believe intel agencies, especially international ones, I can't say I don't sympathize.  I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from, so I'm interested in elaboration beyond what you've already repeated here. 

My genuine stance is that we've been lied to enough times, for long enough, to take nothing at face value.

Anyone claiming they do, and doing so confidently, is delusional.

I can certainly leave it at that.

And the rest of my speculation is on the last few pages back, which I infer you read.
« Last Edit: Today at 12:34:12 PM by jgvol »

MikeDeTiger

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The same people who claimed Iran was violating the deal are the same ones who are now itching to get the US into another military quagmire in the Middle East.

This is an example of the Appeal to Motive logical fallacy, where one ascribes the truth of a claim based on the perceived motive someone might have for making it, rather than addressing the claims actual merits.  I'm open to evidence that the reports are false, but this isn't it.

As for the motive itself, I for one certainly hope we do not get into another military quagmire in the Middle East, or anywhere else.  

 

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