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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43694 on: April 21, 2025, 09:46:28 AM »
He has stated, repeatedly, that there is massive fraud within SS and Medicare, which I do believe. 
I don't see evidence for massive fraud in SS or Medicare.  One can dispute the various studies, of course, but I haven't seen one showing "massive fraud".  Let's define that as being say $100 billion a year in fraud for SS.  Is that possible?  Yes.  Is it probable?  I don't see the evidence.

I also think this 150 year old thing was rather badly managed in terms of their veracity.  They seem, to me, to make a lot of stuff up that simply isn't true.  I think they should have erred on the side of being conservative, the DOGE folks, and double checked claims before listing them as savings.

Congress appropriates the monies.  Only Congress can "save" them.  With legislation, largely.  Obviously some efficiencies can be had.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43695 on: April 21, 2025, 10:37:11 AM »
depends on your definition of massive
Also depends on your definition of fraud. 

I absolutely agree that there is massive fraud in SS but that is largely because I consider the "Crazy Checks" that we have discussed upthread to be fraudulent. 

Per the interwebs:
fraud noun:  wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain. 

Well, I consider it manifestly "wrongful" for able-bodied people to collect "disability" checks when their only disability is that they like to drink/get high/smoke meth/shoot heroin/smoke crack, whatever. 

I don't have actual figures for the amount of this because SSI doesn't break down their payments by "things that @medinabuckeye1 considers fraud" and I do NOT think that all disability claimants are fraudulent.  If you are physically unable to work due to some trauma or medical issue that is what SSI Disability is for.  IMHO, it is NOT for people who would simply rather engage in their addictions than work. 

The amount of this is staggering.  Upthread I think it was @Gigem who commented about the prevalence of it in his area.  I can tell you that my wife worked in addiction counseling for a County Health Department and nearly all of her clients were on SSI Disability and they all called them "crazy checks". 

I'm enough of a libertarian (hat tip to @betarhoalphadelta ) that I don't really care too much about drug use PROVIDED that the user is paying for their non-working lifestyle with their own money.  However, it infuriates me that we as taxpayers are forced to subsidize the non-working lifestyle of what have to be MILLIONS of addicts who should be working for a living. 

EDIT to add:
I should have clarified in the last paragraph that not all addicts are non-working.  My wife did have a few clients who were what are sometimes called "functioning addicts".  These folks were addicts but they somehow managed to sober up and work then go back to being addicts.  
« Last Edit: April 21, 2025, 12:40:20 PM by medinabuckeye1 »

bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43696 on: April 21, 2025, 11:07:31 AM »
I don't really care too much about drug use PROVIDED that the user is paying for their non-working lifestyle with their own money.  However, it infuriates me that we as taxpayers are forced to subsidize the non-working lifestyle of what have to be MILLIONS of addicts who should be working for a living. 
Not that I have a good answer for this, but that feels like a catch-22. Being that kind of addict makes you a poor employee. Getting on the straight and narrow takes a ton of effort in itself. 

Like, if we could solve the addiction quickly by making them work, that would be super. But also probably not a real outcome. 

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43697 on: April 21, 2025, 11:15:25 AM »
The disability part likely has quite a  bit of fraud, I agree.  I was thinking old folks.  

jgvol

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43698 on: April 21, 2025, 11:15:57 AM »
Not that I have a good answer for this, but that feels like a catch-22. Being that kind of addict makes you a poor employee. Getting on the straight and narrow takes a ton of effort in itself.

Like, if we could solve the addiction quickly by making them work, that would be super. But also probably not a real outcome.

There really aren't good answers, I agree, but....


The first way to incentivize change is to turn off Uncle Sugar's money spigot.

FearlessF

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43699 on: April 21, 2025, 11:35:24 AM »
Ed Zachery
Enabling the addition with tax dollars is NOT a solution
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43700 on: April 21, 2025, 12:48:03 PM »
Not that I have a good answer for this, but that feels like a catch-22. Being that kind of addict makes you a poor employee. Getting on the straight and narrow takes a ton of effort in itself.

Like, if we could solve the addiction quickly by making them work, that would be super. But also probably not a real outcome.
I don't disagree, it isn't easy and there aren't any good answers and simply kicking everyone off would cause a lot of short term pain.  

That said, I agree with this:
The first way to incentivize change is to turn off Uncle Sugar's money spigot.
and this:
Enabling the addition with tax dollars is NOT a solution


 @FearlessF 's reference to "enabling" is important.  Look, if one of us had a brother who was an alcoholic and we let that brother live in out house and drink booze that we provided that wouldn't help said brother kick his addiction.  That would be what people who deal with addiction call "enabling" and it would just allow them to continue their addiction rather than address it.  

I think, for a lot of us, one of the main reasons we DON'T have addictions is because we have to get up in the morning and go to work and we know we can't do that effectively if we spend too much of the prior evening/night drinking or whatever.  When you give "crazy checks" to addicts you take away that motivation because they can sustain themselves with Govn't cash so they don't have to get up in the morning and go to work.  

I also think that this could be a political goldmine for Trump/Musk.  If Democrats choose to be the party of checks for addicts my guess is that they'll find themselves actually losing seats in the midterm.  

MikeDeTiger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43701 on: April 21, 2025, 12:53:17 PM »
I also think that this could be a political goldmine for Trump/Musk.  If Democrats choose to be the party of checks for addicts my guess is that they'll find themselves actually losing seats in the midterm. 

Never underestimate the Republican Party's penchant for crappy marketing and snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.  

This probably wouldn't mean anything to you, but regardless of the merits of an issue, if Democrats are Florida's old AD, Scott Foley, then Republicans are LSU's old AD, Joe Alleva.  Could be right about everything and still lose the PR war in a rout.  

Gigem

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43702 on: April 21, 2025, 01:33:43 PM »
It always stuns me at how easy it was for a lot of these people to get crazy checks.  My cousin got them, he recently died at age 52 after he literally drank himself to death.  When he was young, he was very able bodied and could do all kinds of work, but he never held a regular steady job.  Literally never got any kind of a paycheck.  Anytime he did work for us we had to pay him in cash.  I don't know exactly when he started getting crazy checks but he was probably in his 40's and still relatively healthy.  

I think everybody is a little right on their assessment.  If they didn't get crazy checks they would have a good motivation to get up and go to work.  A friend of mine died last year (was a star athlete in school and even had a stint in the NFL) and he died from an OD we think.  He was basically an addict his whole adult life, but he still worked.  He did work for me at times, cutting trees and doing manual labor and other things.  About 2 PM the "itch" would get really bad and he would have to go, like clockwork.  I think getting his SS check is what did him in, because once he had that money and didn't have to really work for it he only lasted like 6 months.  He was actually SS eligible at 62, it wasn't SSI I believe.  

His other friend who was also an addict died literally 2-3 months before him, we also suspect OD or fentnyl or whatever it is these days that kills addicts.  

Anyways, I kind of got off the subject but I do believe they will stop a lot of these crazy checks and other things that I truly consider fraud.  SS was supposed to be for old age and true disability, not for people to support their drug and other addiction.  

ELA

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43703 on: April 21, 2025, 03:35:50 PM »
Never underestimate the Republican Party's penchant for crappy marketing and snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. 
I think really since the Tea Party rise, the Republicans have been MUCH better about presenting a single unified message.

Obama was a good enough politician that he overcame it, but in general the Democrats have been a mess.  One time they won by saying "we get you hate Trump, so give us a sec to figure it out", and then they were like "oh, so run Biden again, and have everyone campaign on not being Trump!"

I'm actually hoping this starts a backlash around running negative, when a whole party ran on a platform that was literally "not him".

MikeDeTiger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43704 on: April 21, 2025, 03:54:16 PM »
IMO both parties and all politicians should do a better job of that.  Too much focus on what they're against that the other guy is doing, not enough laying out a positive vision of what you want to see and how you think you can make it happen.  

I get the urge, and nothing riles up sentiment and quick support like demonizing something and telling people it's their duty to vote against it.  And I have no doubt there are many politicians (and people) who genuinely hate what the "other side" is doing and think it needs to stop.  

I think it's ultimately shallow support, though.  ymmv, but I still see a lot of signs that the public's imagination can be ignited and that people can and will respond to an ideal, if you trust them to think with you just a little bit beyond basic bitch soundbytes.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43705 on: April 21, 2025, 03:58:40 PM »
I'm actually hoping this starts a backlash around running negative, when a whole party ran on a platform that was literally "not him".
My theory on negative campaigning and I'd be interested in the thoughts of others but particularly @SFBadger96 who actually has campaign experience.  

In a local race I think that negative campaigning is not effective.  The issue is that too many people know both candidates or at least know somebody that knows somebody that knows each candidate.  Consequently, if I'm running against @SFBadger96 for a seat on City Council and he calls me a dirty-rotten-so-and-so, I think that blows back in his face because there are enough people in our local Council Ward that say (basically):
  • Hey wait a minute, I met @medinabuckeye1 at the grocery store, he seems like a nice guy, or
  • Hey wait a minute, my kids played soccer with @medinabuckeye1 's kids, he seems like a nice guy, or
  • Hey wait a minute, my parents go to church with @medinabuckeye1 's parents, they seem like a nice family, or
  • etc.  
However, as races become less local, the impact of this is diluted until it becomes statistically irrelevant.  So if I'm running against @SFBadger96 for Congress in a district of ~800k people there simply aren't enough people who know either of us let alone both of us to where there is any significant blowback from negative campaigning.  Also, there are a LOT of people who think that all politicians are dirty so we call each other dirty-rotten-so-and-so's, a nontrivial portion of the electorate thinks we are BOTH right.  

By the time you get to the Presidential level it is possible that a majority or at least a plurality believe that they are both dirty/crappy/whatever so negative campaigning is just a given.  

FearlessF

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43706 on: April 21, 2025, 09:59:37 PM »
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43707 on: April 22, 2025, 07:02:05 AM »
Negative campaining is the most effective kind.

My proposal is that any political ad cannot use a candidate's name other than the one being supported.

We consistently end up with two flawed (in my view) candidates for public office with occasional exceptions.


 

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