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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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utee94

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41720 on: February 12, 2025, 12:18:21 PM »
I graduated at 27.

For me, I already had a working knowledge of engineering due to my job.

So, in that regard, all I wanted to do was finish so I could concentrate solely my job - a job that I've never had the opportunity to use the vast skills I gained in rural sociology, anthropology, and all that shit.
I get it.  Like I said, at most universities, engineering school is a vocational school that still tries to masquerade as a broader more classical educational endeavor. 

I see some merit in those electives that primarily come from the liberal arts or soft sciences, but their value to one's education is subjective and debatable.  Should the college of engineering attempt a broader classical education?  It's tough to say.  As I recall there are some super-technical colleges that really don't, maybe Harvey Mudd and some others like it?  But the major universities and big state schools, all tend to force at least some level of classical education into the engineering program.

847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41721 on: February 12, 2025, 12:22:50 PM »
Cutting the crap would reduce student debt for many not on scholarship.

It also gets them into the workforce 1.5 years sooner, paying taxes.
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utee94

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41722 on: February 12, 2025, 12:25:36 PM »
Cutting the crap would reduce student debt for many not on scholarship.

It also gets them into the workforce 1.5 years sooner, paying taxes.
It really just depends on the school's intent, and its mission.  I think if you asked them, most university presidents would assert that their engineering colleges are NOT intended to be vocational schools.  The Dean of Engineering might feel differently, but the university president and board are the ones who set the mission (along with the original state charter, for public university state schools).

847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41723 on: February 12, 2025, 12:30:57 PM »
This is another hurdle for engineering programs. States require a degree from an ABET-accredited institution in order to sit for the P.E. exam.

About ABET - ABET
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Mdot21

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41724 on: February 12, 2025, 12:31:00 PM »
Cutting the crap would reduce student debt for many not on scholarship.

It also gets them into the workforce 1.5 years sooner, paying taxes.
anything the government gets involved in simply put, full stop only makes it worse. why? because the government is largely staffed by incompetent people who could not make it in the private sector if their life depended upon it- and it is accountable to no one- which opens things up for....wait for it....incompetence (obviously) waste, fraud, and abuse. 

just take the Biden administrations $5 billion they allocated to fund EV charging networks along major highways in the US. In four fucking years they built a grand total of....seven. Seven. Meanwhile private sector firms like Tesla, ChargePoint, ElectrifyAmerica can capably and reliably build on budget and on time- thousands every single year- not SEVEN in four fucking years. that one tiny little small example is a microcosm of the entire system. 

soon as the government got into K-12 education whole thing tanked. soon as the government got into student loans price of college skyrocketed. the government literally cannot do anything effectively or without waste, fraud, and abuse. time to scale it way back- and it was never intended by the founding fathers to become this bastardized corrupt wasteful monstrosity that it has became. the only thing to do at this point is take a chainsaw and hatchet and go to fucking town on the bitch. 

MikeDeTiger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41725 on: February 12, 2025, 12:31:37 PM »
There seems to be a good bit of power of the purse interference. Separation of powers and such.

but if the last admin could have done this kind of thing and folks on the right would’ve said “I guess that’s legal“, I suppose they probably should’ve. But I don’t think that’s the case.

I honestly don't know what you're talking about, as far as separation of powers being breached.  Congress has the power of the purse, which they continue to wield, with increasing vagueness over the years.  One way to have avoided all this in the first place is if Congress would put specifics into law exactly how money they approve is allocated.  That mostly doesn't happen.  They say $40 billion must be spent by this outfit."  That gives the executive branch a heckuva lot of leeway on how that money gets spent by that agency.  And that leeway has been exercised since time immemorial....this is not some new thing we're dealing with.  The president may run into legit legal challenges if he tries to just stop spending USAID $ altogether.  But the executive branch absolutely can rearrange that $, making tweaks, cuts, or reallocations across a broad scope, and the executive branch has always done so.  If Congress were to have specified exactly how USAID spends the money they allowed it, then sure, there'd be a lot more rules in place.  But there aren't.  And no judge who has currently halted the freezes has said anything unconstitutional has been done.  They've said "Let's take a look at this and rule on it."  That's neither power of the purse interference nor a constitutional crisis. On the contrary, if anything, it's checks and balances working as it should.  

What DOGE is doing now, President Carter attempted to do back in the 70's, but he ran into so much blowback that he folded.  After him, Reagan tried to do the same thing, but abandoned the project, having been told by his aids (who were probably right, at the time) that the beast was too hopelessly complicated, and auditing the executive branch just wasn't possible.  Nobody said anything about separation of powers or constitutional crisis then.  They told Carter they didn't want him to, and then told Reagan it couldn't be done, but nobody said the presidents weren't authorized to try.  

We were far closer to a breach in separation of powers when Biden stated in multiple addresses that he openly defied the Supreme Court on the student-loan forgiveness thing, or when he hilariously tried to tweet the 28th Amendment into existence.  And even then, we were nowhere near a crisis, or, imo, an actual breach of separation of powers.  Separations of powers goes hand in hand with checks and balances, and so far, I don't see anything that's not working properly here.  Mostly just that a lot of folks don't like it. 

847badgerfan

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MikeDeTiger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41727 on: February 12, 2025, 12:42:43 PM »
soon as the government got into student loans price of college skyrocketed. the government literally cannot do anything effectively or without waste, fraud, and abuse. time to scale it way back- and it was never intended by the founding fathers to become this bastardized corrupt wasteful monstrosity that it has became. the only thing to do at this point is take a chainsaw and hatchet and go to fucking town on the bitch.

That's the thing.

An example I grew up with in Louisiana were the areas where casinos moved in, once they became legal.  The local economies were fine without them.  Fast-forward ten years into their opening, and no matter how people feel about gambling or the businesses, the money they generated and put back into the local economy was already so entrenched, so hopelessly factored into so many other budgets, that nobody would ever consider getting rid of them.  Even though we were fine without them before they came. 

That's how I see university systems.  Well, a lot of them, anyway.  Should've never got to where we rely so much on financial aid.  But we did.  We used to be fine with very little of it.  But we wouldn't be anymore.  And that does have other consequences, as I've stated. 

But don't take that as an argument against re-thinking financial aid and the way universities operate, or that I oppose any changes.  Only that there is no magic reset button to go back to the way things were before the gub'ment mucked it all up. 

Pragmatically, I and many others could ostensibly (again, I stress, this could happen) lose our jobs.  Philosophically, I'm relatively hostile to the university paradigm and in some ways I'd like to see parts of it burn, and that part of me thinks "Oh well.  I'm not owed a job by the taxpayers."  Which.....does make for some interesting conversations around here. 

Mdot21

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41728 on: February 12, 2025, 12:43:50 PM »
I honestly don't know what you're talking about, as far as separation of powers being breached.  Congress has the power of the purse, which they continue to wield, with increasing vagueness over the years.  One way to have avoided all this in the first place is if Congress would put specifics into law exactly how money they approve is allocated.  That mostly doesn't happen.  They say $40 billion must be spent by this outfit."  That gives the executive branch a heckuva lot of leeway on how that money gets spent by that agency.  And that leeway has been exercised since time immemorial....this is not some new thing we're dealing with.  The president may run into legit legal challenges if he tries to just stop spending USAID $ altogether.  But the executive branch absolutely can rearrange that $, making tweaks, cuts, or reallocations across a broad scope, and the executive branch has always done so.  If Congress were to have specified exactly how USAID spends the money they allowed it, then sure, there'd be a lot more rules in place.  But there aren't.  And no judge who has currently halted the freezes has said anything unconstitutional has been done.  They've said "Let's take a look at this and rule on it."  That's neither power of the purse interference nor a constitutional crisis. On the contrary, if anything, it's checks and balances working as it should. 

What DOGE is doing now, President Carter attempted to do back in the 70's, but he ran into so much blowback that he folded.  After him, Reagan tried to do the same thing, but abandoned the project, having been told by his aids (who were probably right, at the time) that the beast was too hopelessly complicated, and auditing the executive branch just wasn't possible.  Nobody said anything about separation of powers or constitutional crisis then.  They told Carter they didn't want him to, and then told Reagan it couldn't be done, but nobody said the presidents weren't authorized to try. 

We were far closer to a breach in separation of powers when Biden stated in multiple addresses that he openly defied the Supreme Court on the student-loan forgiveness thing, or when he hilariously tried to tweet the 28th Amendment into existence.  And even then, we were nowhere near a crisis, or, imo, an actual breach of separation of powers.  Separations of powers goes hand in hand with checks and balances, and so far, I don't see anything that's not working properly here.  Mostly just that a lot of folks don't like it.
100%.

It is fucking LAUGHABLE to hear anyone in Congress bitch about this. Congress has been lazy and not done it's job for oh I don't know- the last 100 years....and it has continually given up some of it's own powers and handed & expanded Executive power.

Propaganda is real- you see all these retards, liars, and actors on cable news tv & in the 2 or 3 outlets left in major print all in unison screaming "Constitutional Crisis" - when the reality is that has come and gone- the Constitution has been ripped to shreds decades ago. Most of what the federal government does is not authorized in the Constitution.

How many undeclared wars (an actual constitutional crisis) have we seen in just the last less than 25 years? Hint: a fucking...a lot. How about warrantless spying programs targeting Americans (again...you know...an actual constitutional crisis)? How many world wide torture campaigns has the US ran? How many assassinations of US citizens without charge or trial (at least 4 instances I know of....constitutional crisis anyone)? How about forced lockdowns during COVID? Attempts by the US gov't to censor the internet? Never heard any of these fake tv crisis actors who are probably taking their marching orders from DNC or intelligence community ever talk about a constitutional crisis for any of that. Weird.

Gigem

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41729 on: February 12, 2025, 01:52:20 PM »
I'm maybe a bit of a contrarian on Education but here is my take:

Short version:
We should have a LOT less Govn't aid for college. 
I agree with almost everything medina said, with maybe the exception that you didn't have to be rich to attend college prior to the 1980's.  Before then, a lot of people could work their way through college.  Sure, they were poor while attending, but a lot of them had no debt when they finished.  Even when I attended college from 1994-2000 college was much cheaper than it is now.  
The difference then was that most of the people who wanted to go to college truly got something out of it and wanted to be there.  Now, there are so many people who get nothing or almost nothing from college who didn't really want to be there but were forced to by their parents.  My own son is about to graduate in May from college and I wonder if it was money well spent?  

847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41730 on: February 12, 2025, 02:13:32 PM »
I agree with almost everything medina said, with maybe the exception that you didn't have to be rich to attend college prior to the 1980's.  Before then, a lot of people could work their way through college.  Sure, they were poor while attending, but a lot of them had no debt when they finished.  Even when I attended college from 1994-2000 college was much cheaper than it is now. 
The difference then was that most of the people who wanted to go to college truly got something out of it and wanted to be there.  Now, there are so many people who get nothing or almost nothing from college who didn't really want to be there but were forced to by their parents.  My own son is about to graduate in May from college and I wonder if it was money well spent? 
I graduated in 1994 and worked my way through college for 10 years (3 in Madison). My tuition in Madison was $2,200/year as I was granted state residency. If I had to pay OOS it was $11K.

In-state now is $11K and OOS is $40K.

Community college was around $500/year.
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bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41731 on: February 12, 2025, 02:21:47 PM »
I get it.  Like I said, at most universities, engineering school is a vocational school that still tries to masquerade as a broader more classical educational endeavor. 

I see some merit in those electives that primarily come from the liberal arts or soft sciences, but their value to one's education is subjective and debatable.  Should the college of engineering attempt a broader classical education?  It's tough to say.  As I recall there are some super-technical colleges that really don't, maybe Harvey Mudd and some others like it?  But the major universities and big state schools, all tend to force at least some level of classical education into the engineering program.
I tend to agree with a lot of this. There is some value in having a lot of the research going on at universities and pushing forward on a lot of things. The question is scale/not running SO many people through it.

One thing I wonder about with my own experience is how to keep people in touch with STEM to the point that they might get to it later in life.

I was a freshman with a solid math and science background. Pre-med and pre-engineering classes were mostly unpleasant, and I was culled out to a degree. I imagine 22-year-old me might’ve talent a different track, but it was already kind of late for that. Maybe I was never destined for any of that, but I know that system took a STEM curious kid and said. You don’t want it enough, you’re out of track by 20.

I don’t care and am fine, but I imagine some system could make better use out of the skills I had.

bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41732 on: February 12, 2025, 02:24:45 PM »
I graduated in 1994 and worked my way through college for 10 years (3 in Madison). My tuition in Madison was $2,200/year as I was granted state residency. If I had to pay OOS it was $11K.

In-state now is $11K and OOS is $40K.

Community college was around $500/year.
Outpacing inflation by 132% for in state, 68 for out of state.

And the job you had was, if I recall correctly, a full-time job job. Not a college job. 

Gigem

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41733 on: February 12, 2025, 02:34:27 PM »
I tend to agree with a lot of this. There is some value in having a lot of the research going on at universities and pushing forward on a lot of things. The question is scale/not running SO many people through it.

One thing I wonder about with my own experience is how to keep people in touch with STEM to the point that they might get to it later in life.

I was a freshman with a solid math and science background. Pre-med and pre-engineering classes were mostly unpleasant, and I was culled out to a degree. I imagine 22-year-old me might’ve talent a different track, but it was already kind of late for that. Maybe I was never destined for any of that, but I know that system took a STEM curious kid and said. You don’t want it enough, you’re out of track by 20.

I don’t care and am fine, but I imagine some system could make better use out of the skills I had.
I experienced this as well. Still graduated, just not with the same degree as I started out with.  I realize now I would have been much better off going to a much better, smaller school than the ginormous state U, or maybe even waiting a couple of years when I was more mature.  

Just out of curiosity, what did you finish college with (what degree) or did you finish?  

 

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