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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41048 on: December 28, 2024, 01:36:44 PM »
I only know two.

Ken Griffin is a very nice man, as is John Canning.
Nice men don't make cutthroat financial decisions that side with the few over the many?  They may be kind, but that doesn't mean ethical, right?
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41049 on: December 28, 2024, 01:41:23 PM »
BULLSHIT the economy is not a zero-sum game.  Please go take a macro economics class or two or just observe what actually happens. 

And I wasn't joking, I was making a sarcastic comment about your ignorance of how an economy works.  If the economy was a zero-sum game there would be no growth in the economy over time. 
Did I post that the economy is a zero-sum game?
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41050 on: December 28, 2024, 01:43:44 PM »
For one person to win, hundreds just have to stay at the same plateau for decades. 
You're right, let's joke about it and deny it's that way.  Fun. 
This clearly implies it's a zero sum game.  For one person to profit, hundreds have to plateau.

This isn't true of course.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41051 on: December 28, 2024, 01:49:52 PM »
This clearly implies it's a zero sum game.  For one person to profit, hundreds have to plateau.

This isn't true of course.
This describes our economy since the 70s.  Workers' wages relatively stagnant while upper management income skyrockets. 

edit:  oh, and worker productivity has skyrocketed with those stagnant wages....that matters

« Last Edit: December 28, 2024, 02:05:29 PM by OrangeAfroMan »
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Gigem

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41052 on: December 28, 2024, 02:03:47 PM »
Billionaires aren't inherently bad, obviously.  But to get to that level, perhaps our system requires a series of selfish decisions to be made...and possibly unethical decisions.
Zuckerberg famously never wanted ads on FB.  It has ads. 
Some would say allowing the algorithm to maximize engagement (and $$$) is unethical, as it preys on human nature.  That's not a jealousy thing, it's an ethics quandary.

What do large employers do?  When times get tight, they do what's fiscally responsible, letting go of many workers to insure the wallets of few stockholders remain thick.  Ho-hum if you went to business school, but when times are tight, that's the worst time to lose your job. 

How many stockboys or greeters are benefitting from Wal-Mart's seemingly perpetual 5% growth?  Maybe the CEO doesn't need that $10 million bonus.  Maybe he shouldn't be rewarded for mandating those greeters and stockboys never reach 40 hours in a week, to benefit the company. 

Now a person could very fairly be critical of the system and not those who navigate it successfully.  That makes sense.  But I don't think it's odd to suggest the difficulty/rarity of a billionaire reaching that level ethically. 
I don't understand this line of thinking, because you're coming from the standpoint that people don't have agency for themselves. I've had jobs before that I didn't like the pay, or the hours, or the boss, or whatever, so I quit and found a new job.  I also realized that I needed something else to get a better job, so I got an education.  

Companies that are not concerned about their financial well being will not be in business long.  What are you even saying...that when economic conditions get bad they should just "keep on keepin' on" and just let themselves go broke because nobody should ever be out of a job?  

Companies are no different than yourself.  You have to make tough decisions every day,  as a person, in order to navigate this world.  You "fire" companies every time you make a purchase, because ultimately you're picking one company over the other.  Do you shop at Wal-Mart, or Target, or Amazon?  Do you fix your old car, or your AC at your house?  Should I go out to eat this week, or save money and stay home.  If you chose to stay home, you deprived some business out there of income to ensure your wallet stayed thick.  

Walmart pays their employees the bare minimum amount to get the job done, and not a penny more because that's the only way they could keep their prices low and stay in business.  It really doesn't matter what the CEO makes in relation to a stockboy or greeter, because the CEO brings in billions in value to the company, while the stock boy or greeter brings minimal value, with minimal training, and can probably be replaced easily.  But nobody is forcing the stockboy or greeter to stay there, in fact I'd wager that many of these jobs are filled by young people just starting out, working their way through college or whatever, just a starting point in life, not the end point.  I used to see a lot of older people working in Walmart, because they're at the end of their road and they just wanted a simple job with a little income to supplement their SS or pension.  

It's funny you brought up the CEO of WalMart, I just looked him up.  He joined the company as a summer associate in high school, and worked his way up from there.  He had a base pay of $27 million last year, on company revenue of 648 billion.  


Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41053 on: December 28, 2024, 02:11:16 PM »
Here is a real problem if we're talking about median real HH income, most of the increases over time have been in the upper quartiles of income.  The lower income folks have been treading water, not really seeing gains.  This has been going on for decades now.

And of course they can readily "see" billionaires out there doing stupid stuff at times.  They resent it.  If they were doing a little better over time, they'd focus more on how to get better than that. 

There other piece in this is the government reported CPI is almost certainly underreporting "real inflation".  The figure was changed over time, particularly circa 1995, to understate inflation, so a lot of folks feel like they have gone backwards.  They get into the cycle of credit card debt and their personal financial situation is just not looking good, so they want to blame someone else (and whine).  It's an ideal condition for some demagogue populist to attract their vote.
I think I adequately stated the problem, I still have no clue how to fix it.


OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41054 on: December 28, 2024, 02:13:56 PM »
I don't understand this line of thinking, because you're coming from the standpoint that people don't have agency for themselves. I've had jobs before that I didn't like the pay, or the hours, or the boss, or whatever, so I quit and found a new job.  I also realized that I needed something else to get a better job, so I got an education. 

Companies that are not concerned about their financial well being will not be in business long.  What are you even saying...that when economic conditions get bad they should just "keep on keepin' on" and just let themselves go broke because nobody should ever be out of a job? 

Companies are no different than yourself.  You have to make tough decisions every day,  as a person, in order to navigate this world.  You "fire" companies every time you make a purchase, because ultimately you're picking one company over the other.  Do you shop at Wal-Mart, or Target, or Amazon?  Do you fix your old car, or your AC at your house?  Should I go out to eat this week, or save money and stay home.  If you chose to stay home, you deprived some business out there of income to ensure your wallet stayed thick. 

Walmart pays their employees the bare minimum amount to get the job done, and not a penny more because that's the only way they could keep their prices low and stay in business.  It really doesn't matter what the CEO makes in relation to a stockboy or greeter, because the CEO brings in billions in value to the company, while the stock boy or greeter brings minimal value, with minimal training, and can probably be replaced easily.  But nobody is forcing the stockboy or greeter to stay there, in fact I'd wager that many of these jobs are filled by young people just starting out, working their way through college or whatever, just a starting point in life, not the end point.  I used to see a lot of older people working in Walmart, because they're at the end of their road and they just wanted a simple job with a little income to supplement their SS or pension. 

It's funny you brought up the CEO of WalMart, I just looked him up.  He joined the company as a summer associate in high school, and worked his way up from there.  He had a base pay of $27 million last year, on company revenue of 648 billion. 
Good post, I appreciate it.

I agree with much of it, but I guess what I had in mind was that during tough times, these companies aren't just getting by as we all struggle, but they're still making their money during these tough times.  Sure, they're altering their projections, etc, but still needing to make them.  I'm definitely not a stock market expert, but I do know that excuses on why projections aren't met are irrelevant and met with anger, pressure, and a value drop.

As for switching jobs, at some point, that's a luxury.  To quit a job, take the time to find a new job, and the lack of pay during that process is something MANY cannot afford to do.  

And Walmart doesn't care if you're young or old or middle-age with 3 kids, they're preventing those who would otherwise enjoy 40 hours and benefits from getting that.  Explaining it away as greeters are old and just want something to do is playing right into Walmart's propaganda.  

If Walmart's CEO worked his way up like that, then good for him.  Do you think he's the exception or the rule?
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41055 on: December 28, 2024, 02:15:16 PM »
I think I adequately stated the problem, I still have no clue how to fix it.


Vote for Trump
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41056 on: December 28, 2024, 02:52:34 PM »
Nice men don't make cutthroat financial decisions that side with the few over the many?  They may be kind, but that doesn't mean ethical, right?
The two I mentioned are of the highest ethics, in my view. Great guys.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

Gigem

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41057 on: December 28, 2024, 03:32:52 PM »
Good post, I appreciate it.

I agree with much of it, but I guess what I had in mind was that during tough times, these companies aren't just getting by as we all struggle, but they're still making their money during these tough times.  Sure, they're altering their projections, etc, but still needing to make them.  I'm definitely not a stock market expert, but I do know that excuses on why projections aren't met are irrelevant and met with anger, pressure, and a value drop.

As for switching jobs, at some point, that's a luxury.  To quit a job, take the time to find a new job, and the lack of pay during that process is something MANY cannot afford to do. 

And Walmart doesn't care if you're young or old or middle-age with 3 kids, they're preventing those who would otherwise enjoy 40 hours and benefits from getting that.  Explaining it away as greeters are old and just want something to do is playing right into Walmart's propaganda. 

If Walmart's CEO worked his way up like that, then good for him.  Do you think he's the exception or the rule?
Uh, no they're not always making money.  Lots of times, they lose money.  And the ones that don't lose money, have to cut things in order to not lose money.  In my own company, for example (not my business, the company I work for) we have cut many projects that were in the works for this year and next just because there isn't enough funds to do all the work.  So we have work that we want to do, and work that we need to do.  Some of the "need to do" is urgent, and we will spend the money to do.  Some isn't, and we can defer for a year or two.  Usually, the ones that make the cut are the ones identified as will generate sufficient income like bottlenecks in the plant or production efficiency, or things that need to be addressed immediately due to safety or environmental concerns.  

Look at utee's ( and brad's ) industry, tech and semiconductors.  Utee mentioned a few months ago that his good friend got laid off.  His entire dept got laid off.  Brad has had some ups and downs with his company as well.  Companies that aren't worried about losing money won't be in business long.  Is the economy good now, or is it bad?  I really don't know what to believe.  If you look at the stock market, you'd think it's good.  But my own company (my employer) isn't doing too hot, and I know my business isn't doing too hot either.  Intel, which is one of the original silicon valley blue chip companies, is in danger of going out of business.  No, I don't mean like literally going out of business, but certainly they're vulnerable to takeover or even going bankrupt, split up and sold out like a lot of other companies have over the years.  Why?  Because they didn't evolve with their market, and other companies are doing better in those markets.  Others will have better insight than me, but certainly large companies can and will go out of business.  Remember Sears?  

Gigem

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41058 on: December 28, 2024, 03:44:44 PM »
BTW, the billionaire from my town of 3,000 people ( I don't know him, but I know his brother).  This is what they pay, they advertise it on their stores.


Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41059 on: December 28, 2024, 03:50:33 PM »

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41060 on: December 28, 2024, 04:39:41 PM »
BTW, the billionaire from my town of 3,000 people ( I don't know him, but I know his brother).  This is what they pay, they advertise it on their stores.


Good to know I make half of what a Car Wash Manager makes.  I'm going to go off myself now.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Gigem

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41061 on: December 28, 2024, 04:42:08 PM »
I’ve heard working there, in any capacity, is extremely demanding. 

 

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