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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38836 on: November 01, 2024, 01:59:53 PM »
The people who made the decisions were in a terrible situation with no good options.  Judging them with the benefit of hindsight isn't fair to them. 
I mean, for a lot of them, one option was to not be a Nazi (having a growing Nazi party itself is quite an issue). Seems like a good start. 

And I think I have the right to, decades later, not be all that fair to people who aligned with people whose plan was to dispossess and deport my family, but eventually settled for starving, murdering and incinerating them. 

And it ultimately makes me wary of a lot of folks. A lotta modern folks will tell me they're all in for stopping "communism" or its byproducts, and this is a good reminder if they need to break a few eggs like myself (or some othered group), they'll do it and demand fairness afterwards. 

(I promise you, I'm not gonna bend much on this)

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38837 on: November 01, 2024, 02:06:53 PM »
Apparently, in 1933, a lot of Germans were not Nazis.  I'd guess that was the case through 1935, though many would keep it quiet.  At that point, Hitler would be seen as being a strong leader who was improving their lot in life.  They were willing, apparently, to accept totalitarianism in return for a good economy and establishing more pride in their country.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38838 on: November 01, 2024, 02:31:10 PM »
I mean, for a lot of them, one option was to not be a Nazi (having a growing Nazi party itself is quite an issue). Seems like a good start.

And I think I have the right to, decades later, not be all that fair to people who aligned with people whose plan was to dispossess and deport my family, but eventually settled for starving, murdering and incinerating them.

And it ultimately makes me wary of a lot of folks. A lotta modern folks will tell me they're all in for stopping "communism" or its byproducts, and this is a good reminder if they need to break a few eggs like myself (or some othered group), they'll do it and demand fairness afterwards.

(I promise you, I'm not gonna bend much on this)
Don't act like stopping communism was just a phrase.  Stalin killed more people than Hitler.  It wasn't a choice between one murderous totalitarian scheme and an economic system they didn't like, it was a choice between two murderous totalitarian schemes.  

Millions of people would have died with EITHER the Communists or the Nazi's taking over.  

The people who had some modicum of control chose a coalition government with Hitler as Chancellor and only one other Nazi in the Cabinet in the (ultimately false) belief that they could contain Hitler.  It actually more-or-less worked up until the Reichstag Fire.  

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38839 on: November 01, 2024, 02:31:53 PM »
There is a lesson in there somewhere,.
Yeah, and I hope we're not forced as a country to learn it the hard way.

bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38840 on: November 01, 2024, 03:00:56 PM »

Don't act like stopping communism was just a phrase.  Stalin killed more people than Hitler.  It wasn't a choice between one murderous totalitarian scheme and an economic system they didn't like, it was a choice between two murderous totalitarian schemes. 

Millions of people would have died with EITHER the Communists or the Nazi's taking over. 

The people who had some modicum of control chose a coalition government with Hitler as Chancellor and only one other Nazi in the Cabinet in the (ultimately false) belief that they could contain Hitler.  It actually more-or-less worked up until the Reichstag Fire. 
This insistence makes me think that ultimately a lot of weak people today would send me to a camp while insisting they had good intentions. Not much learned, I suppose. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38841 on: November 01, 2024, 03:07:57 PM »
This insistence makes me think that ultimately a lot of weak people today would send me to a camp while insisting they had good intentions. Not much learned, I suppose.
What insistence?

What have I said that you disagree with?  

bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38842 on: November 01, 2024, 03:24:01 PM »
What insistence?

What have I said that you disagree with? 
I keep granting very little empathy for those people who aligned with the Nazis. And you seem to keep insisting that I extend some because of circumstance. I disagree that I should. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38843 on: November 01, 2024, 04:30:53 PM »
I keep granting very little empathy for those people who aligned with the Nazis. And you seem to keep insisting that I extend some because of circumstance. I disagree that I should.
Ok, what choice did they have?

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38844 on: November 01, 2024, 04:40:36 PM »
I see a difference between having empathy and trying to understand the position they were in.  We'd all like to believe WE would have stood up to Hitler.  I'd guess in my case I would have shook my head and laid low.  I don't like the idea of a concentration camp.

It's similarly interesting to ponder why some individuals are conservative and others of equal intelligence and similar life experiences are liberals.  I THINK in many cases it's tribalism, my Daddy was a Chevy man, so I hate Fords.

In many cases, it's the opposite, I disliked my Dad, so I'm buying Fords to show him.


bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38845 on: November 01, 2024, 05:46:06 PM »
Ok, what choice did they have?
I mean, a lot of Germans had the choice of not being Nazis. Others had the choice of getting ready for civil war, I suppose.

Or are you just talking about the party of business elites? I suppose it depends when. Hold the government in deadlock as long as you could. By 1932 it was probably a bit too late. (I’ve no idea of the potency of the communists to take power. I might align with them if I thought they were in worse position, and then I’d get ready to arrest a lot of Nazis, though it probably wouldn’t  have done much good)

Edit: there’s a good argument that setting up the government in 1932 was also just deck chairs on the titanic. That the country had dipped into lawlessness under threat of a massive army of thugs. At that point, I guess probably just prepare for Civil War.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2024, 06:13:04 PM by bayareabadger »

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38846 on: November 01, 2024, 10:05:51 PM »
I mean, a lot of Germans had the choice of not being Nazis. Others had the choice of getting ready for civil war, I suppose.

Or are you just talking about the party of business elites? I suppose it depends when. Hold the government in deadlock as long as you could. By 1932 it was probably a bit too late. (I’ve no idea of the potency of the communists to take power. I might align with them if I thought they were in worse position, and then I’d get ready to arrest a lot of Nazis, though it probably wouldn’t  have done much good)

Edit: there’s a good argument that setting up the government in 1932 was also just deck chairs on the titanic. That the country had dipped into lawlessness under threat of a massive army of thugs. At that point, I guess probably just prepare for Civil War.
I think by 1932 you are right, it was more-or-less deck chairs on the Titanic.  

As far as the communist potency well, Germany had a series of elections because nobody could form a working government.  Here are the results going back to 1928:


The March 1933 election was the last relatively free election.  

The fundamental tipping point here was when the combination of Nazi's and Communists achieved a majority.  That may seem silly since they hated each other but they had a mutual contempt for democracy and generally refused to work with others.  When >1/2 of your Parliament refuses to work with others, you are screwed.  Once that happened, Germany was impossible to govern.  

Even before that, however, after the 1930 election the Nazis and Communists controlled a combined 31.9% of the seats.  That only leaves 68.1% not controlled by them.  The Nazis and Communists were the second and third largest parties respectively.  It is REALLY hard to form a functioning majority without either the second or third largest party.  To put this into perspective, a coalition of the Social Democrats, Centre, Monarchists would only get you to 43.7% of the seats.  You'd have to add both the DVP and the DDP to get to an actual majority.  A coalition of those five is bulky, unwieldy, unlikely, and didn't happen.  Instead Germany had already become and simply remained a de-facto dictatorship with President simply assigning "Emergency Powers" to the temporary dictator.  

Once the Nazi/Communist combination exceeded 50%, it was all over.  At that point there is NO coalition that works because even a coalition of literally everyone else falls short.  That was the case from the July, 1932 election forward.  

The Nazis won mostly because they were more willing to deal than the Communists.  The Communist leadership considered the SPD to be "Social Fascists" and their "real enemy" so they basically decided they'd rather have Germany become Nazi than to work with the SPD.  By contrast, the Nazi's softened their "no coalition" stance somewhat and aligned with the DNVP and others.  

The Nazis didn't actually win a majority until the most definitely NOT free, November, 1933 election.  

I think the history is important to understand because exactly HOW this happened IS important.  

My main takeaways:
  • The Weimar Constitution and various amendments/interpretations had created a situation in which the President could grant "Emergency Powers" which effectively meant "Dictatorial Control".  This effectively got the German population accustomed to the idea of a dictatorship.  When Hitler took over and made himself "Fuhrer" which is German for "Leader" it didn't strike people as a major change because in a way it wasn't.  Germany had already been governed by a series of temporary dictators for several years.  
  • From 1932 forward an outright majority of German voters effectively voted to abolish democracy.  The Monarchists wanted to go back to the Kaiser, the Communists wanted to join the Comintern, and the Nazis wanted what they ultimately got.  Those three parties got 58.6%, 59.4%, and 65.1% of the seats at the July, 1932, November, 1932, and March, 1933 elections respectively.  Even before the worldwide economic collapse those three were pulling well over 1/4 of the German vote.  Moreover, they weren't the only anti-democratic parties, just the three biggest so Democracy wasn't all that strongly supported even BEFORE the economy tanked.  


Gigem

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38847 on: November 02, 2024, 12:29:18 AM »
I voted today. Whole thing took maybe 5-10 minutes. It’s funny. 5-10 years ago, the voting machines were totally electronic. You’d spin a little dial, go from screen to screen, casting vote.  Submit, game over. 

Now they give you a sheet of paper, you feed it in. Punch in a code. Then vote, screen to screen. I’d bet I didn’t even know half the candidates on the ticket. Various judges and so forth. I wonder how much effort they put into campaigning if I’ve never even heard of them ?  Anyways, you get done and it prints it out, and you give it to another person, who scans it and then it says you voted. Makes me wonder if something drove the fully electronic to back to analog?  I still remember the old punch cards from pre-2000. Hanging chads and all. 

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38848 on: November 02, 2024, 01:51:06 AM »
Apparently, in 1933, a lot of Germans were not Nazis.  I'd guess that was the case through 1935, though many would keep it quiet.  At that point, Hitler would be seen as being a strong leader who was improving their lot in life.  They were willing, apparently, to accept totalitarianism in return for a good economy and establishing more pride in their country.
Remind you of anyone?
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

FearlessF

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38849 on: November 02, 2024, 06:28:12 AM »
a system of government that is centralized and dictatorial and requires complete subservience to the state.

nope
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

 

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