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Topic: In other news ...

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Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #3290 on: March 05, 2021, 04:03:53 PM »
My GUESS is in 15 years, we'll have a lot of Level 4 EVs available for Lyft/Uber to employ, and many of us will forgo private car ownership, or go from two to one.


FearlessF

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #3291 on: March 05, 2021, 04:11:00 PM »
I'd guess, in cities like Atlanta, you will be correct
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

utee94

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #3292 on: March 05, 2021, 04:14:39 PM »
Seems pretty clear it was an attempt to get the results of the election thrown out via less than legal means. Whatever you want to call that is whatever it is.
No it doesn't. 

I mean, it obviously seems that way to people who really want to believe that.  But I don't have any agenda to prove so I have no reason to really want to believe it.

So what I see is an unarmed, unruly mob, that endangered their own lives as much or more than anyone else's, and ended up accomplishing nothing-- because they never had any real goal to accomplish anything.

If you think buffalo bob and company had some concrete goal in mind, you're giving them a lot more credit than they deserve. 
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 04:23:19 PM by utee94 »

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #3293 on: March 05, 2021, 04:18:00 PM »
My vision is for the folks going to work, they will reserve their car that showed up on time each day and they take their 30 minute commute working on email etc.  When work is over, they schedule another pickup and ride home.  No need for a "work car".

The cars run themselves, recharge in parking garages no longer needed, and then turn out for service the next morning.  And, they could operate within feet of each other and send telemetry to each other about conditions up ahead, and communicate with smart signals etc.  

Retirees could call one to go shopping or to play golf or whatever, no parking to worry about.


Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #3294 on: March 05, 2021, 04:20:32 PM »
So what I see is an unarmed, unruly mob, that endangered their own lives as much or more than anyone else's, and ended up accomplishing nothing-- because they never had any real goal to accomplish anything.

If you think buffalo bob and company had some concrete goal in mind, you're giving them a lot more credit than they deserve. 
Mobs often are this way, just folks doing what they see everyone else doing, without much conceived intent.  Reminds me of streaking back in the day, running around nekkid.  Why?  Because everyone else was doing it.

Let's all march over to the Capitol and, well, we'll show'em, yeah.  Unarmed.

Dumb idea, lowest common denominator.

utee94

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #3295 on: March 05, 2021, 04:22:25 PM »
Mobs often are this way, just folks doing what they see everyone else doing, without much conceived intent.  Reminds me of streaking back in the day, running around nekkid.  Why?  Because everyone else was doing it.

Let's all march over to the Capitol and, well, we'll show'em, yeah.  Unarmed.

Dumb idea, lowest common denominator.
You actually went streaking?  I thought that was just a thing in the movies! :)

FearlessF

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #3296 on: March 05, 2021, 04:28:40 PM »
my brother went streaking, once.  at church camp

my mother was not amused 
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

MaximumSam

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #3297 on: March 05, 2021, 04:34:31 PM »
No it doesn't. 

I mean, it seems that way to people who really want to believe that.  But I don't have any reason to really want to believe it.

So what I see is an unarmed, unruly mob, that endangered their own lives as much or more than anyone else's, and ended up accomplishing nothing-- because they never had any real goal to accomplish anything.

If you think buffalo bob and company had some concrete goal in mind, you're giving them a lot more credit than they deserve. 
Oh I don't attribute any "goal" to the mob other than to follow Donald Trump and raise hell because he lost and they didn't think that should happen.

I'm referring to Trump, who made repeated false claims about the election to sow doubt among his supporters and the nation at large about the actual outcome. He also claimed Mike Pence could overturn the election, and in fact pressured several people to try and subvert the election.  Rudy Giuliani also left the following message intended for Tommy Tuberville, of all people.

"We need you, our Republican friends, to try to just slow it down ... So if you could object to every state and, along with a congressman, get a hearing for every state, I know we would delay you a lot, but it would give us the opportunity to get the legislators who are very, very close to pulling their vote ... they have written letters asking that you guys adjourn and send them back the questionable ones and they'll fix them up"."

Why delay things? Because the hope was they could stop Congress from certifying election results and instead resort to the Constitutional method for when no electoral college winner is declared, which is each state delegation gets a vote, which would have advantaged Republicans and theoretically provided a path towards Trump remaining in office. A good way to delay things would be to simply stop Congress from operating at all, which is what they did, at least for a few hours. So the idea that this was just some goofy protest and not one specifically designed to help Trump subvert the election is not something anyone should buy.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #3298 on: March 05, 2021, 04:38:38 PM »
No it doesn't. 

I mean, it seems that way to people who really want to believe that.  But I don't have any reason to really want to believe it.

So what I see is an unarmed, unruly mob, that endangered their own lives as much or more than anyone else's, and ended up accomplishing nothing-- because they never had any real goal to accomplish anything.

If you think buffalo bob and company had some concrete goal in mind, you're giving them a lot more credit than they deserve. 

I think the concrete goal was to do SOMETHING and then Pence would refuse to certify. Here's Trump on that day:


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He looked at Mike Pence, and I hope Mike is going to do the right thing.
I hope so. I hope so because if Mike Pence does the right thing, we win the election. All he has to do. This is from the number one or certainly one of the top constitutional lawyers in our country. He has the absolute right to do it. We’re supposed to protect our country, support our country, support our constitution, and protect our constitution. States want to revote. The States got defrauded. They were given false information. They voted on it. Now they want to recertify. They want it back. All Vice-President Pence has to do is send it back to the States to recertify, and we become president, and you are the happiest people.

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We’re going to have to fight much harder and Mike Pence is going to have to come through for us. If he doesn’t, that will be a sad day for our country because you’re sworn to uphold our constitution. Now it is up to Congress to confront this egregious assault on our democracy. After this, we’re going to walk down and I’ll be there with you. We’re going to walk down. We’re going to walk down any one you want, but I think right here. We’re going walk down to the Capitol, and we’re going to cheer on our brave senators, and congressmen and women. We’re probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them because you’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength, and you have to be strong.
We have come to demand that Congress do the right thing and only count the electors who have been lawfully slated, lawfully slated. I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard. Today we will see whether Republicans stand strong for integrity of our elections, but whether or not they stand strong for our country, our country.

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Today, we see a very important event though, because right over there, right there, we see the event going to take place. And I’m going to be watching, because history is going to be made. We’re going to see whether or not we have great and courageous leaders or whether or not we have leaders that should be ashamed of themselves throughout history, throughout eternity, they’ll be ashamed. And you know what? If they do the wrong thing, we should never ever forget that they did. Never forget. We should never ever forget. With only three of the seven states in question, we win the presidency of the United States.

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By the way, Pennsylvania has now seen all of this. They didn’t know because it was so quick. They had a vote, they voted, but now they see all this stuff. It’s all come to light. Doesn’t happen that fast. And they want to re certify their votes. They want to re certify. But the only way that can happen is if Mike Pence agrees to send it back.
Mike Pence has to agree to send it back. And many people in Congress want it sent back, and take of what you’re doing. Let’s say you don’t do it. Somebody says, “Well, we have to obey the constitution.” And you are, because you’re protecting our country and you’re protecting the constitution, so you are.

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And Mike Pence, I hope you’re going to stand up for the good of our constitution and for the good of our country. And if you’re not, I’m going to be very disappointed in you.

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The Republicans have to get tougher. You’re not going to have a Republican party if you don’t get tougher. They want to play so straight, they want to play so, “Sir, yes, the United States, the constitution doesn’t allow me to send them back to the States.” Well, I say, “Yes, it does because the constitution says you have to protect our country and you have to protect our constitution and you can’t vote on fraud,” and fraud breaks up everything, doesn’t it? When you catch somebody in a fraud, you’re allowed to go by very different rules. So I hope Mike has the courage to do what he has to do. And I hope he doesn’t listen to the RINOs and the stupid people that he’s listening to.

Quote
I think one of our great achievements will be election security because nobody until I came along, had any idea how corrupt our elections were. And again, most people would stand there at 9:00 in the evening and say, “I want to thank you very much,” and they go off to some other life, but I said, “Something’s wrong here. Something’s really wrong. Can’t have happened.” And we fight. We fight like Hell and if you don’t fight like Hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.

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So we’re going to, we’re going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue, I love Pennsylvania Avenue, and we’re going to the Capitol and we’re going to try and give… The Democrats are hopeless. They’re never voting for anything, not even one vote. But we’re going to try and give our Republicans, the weak ones, because the strong ones don’t need any of our help, we’re going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country.
Their goal was to convince, force, cajole, who knows(?), Congress or Mike Pence to not certify the slates of electors. That's specifically what Trump was telling them was the way to make everything better. Don't certify, send it back to the states, or the House, or ANYTHING other than actually certifying the election.

It was a last ditch effort. It was probably doomed to failure whether they stormed the capitol or not. In fact, storming the capitol was probably counterproductive because it turned public opinion against them. And I don't know how they figured storming the capitol would have helped them achieve the goal--that was just pure mob action. 

But don't say they didn't have a goal. The goal was to stop Pence and Congress from certifying the electors. 

MrNubbz

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #3299 on: March 05, 2021, 04:55:38 PM »
my brother went streaking, once.  at church camp

my mother was not amused
Was he sentenced to a couple of months serving Coffee Klatches?
“Did I hear God call me an idiot? ”― William P. Young

MrNubbz

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #3300 on: March 05, 2021, 04:58:05 PM »
You actually went streaking?  I thought that was just a thing in the movies! :)

https://youtu.be/XtzoUu7w-YM?t=1
“Did I hear God call me an idiot? ”― William P. Young

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #3301 on: March 05, 2021, 04:59:01 PM »
You actually went streaking?  I thought that was just a thing in the movies! :)
I did not, but the largest streak in the country was at UGA and I was observing.  

I know the mob thought somehow they would stop Pence, but I don't think of that as a concrete specific goal with any kind of plan.  I suppose it's semantics.

It was a vague notion, we'll march over there and somehow stop Pence.  Hang him?

And it absolutely damaged their "cause".  Most sensible folks were shocked.  I'd bet a lot of the 29,000 were shocked and dismayed.

bayareabadger

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #3302 on: March 05, 2021, 05:04:03 PM »
Mobs often are this way, just folks doing what they see everyone else doing, without much conceived intent.  Reminds me of streaking back in the day, running around nekkid.  Why?  Because everyone else was doing it.

Let's all march over to the Capitol and, well, we'll show'em, yeah.  Unarmed.

Dumb idea, lowest common denominator.
So, I think this is sort of removing a little potency from the act.

You went streaking because it was essentially harmless and you knew or believed the consequences were minimal. Now, being part of a mob reduces your sense of consequences, to be sure, but we have to account for the fact that at some point, folks gotta say "I get that everyone is doing it, but ransacking the US Capital building means something." It means you're doing something that is considered pretty much unilaterally bad and horrifying (if it isn't that, we have another discussion).

I don't have much angst toward many of the folks who went over. Many as you said, went to go. But a lot went because they want desperately to believe something. Even if that something is extralegal wearing down of democratic norms, ehhh, you can protest for nonsense, that's America. But at some point, you've streaked into the US Capital with insanity going on around you. And at some point, you've either consciously crossed the line or just acted really irresponsibly. 

Now, I suppose if it was a smaller crown, they might have been dealt with more harshly. But power in numbers prevailed. 

utee94

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #3303 on: March 05, 2021, 05:04:40 PM »
I think the concrete goal was to do SOMETHING and then Pence would refuse to certify. Here's Trump on that day:

Their goal was to convince, force, cajole, who knows(?), Congress or Mike Pence to not certify the slates of electors. That's specifically what Trump was telling them was the way to make everything better. Don't certify, send it back to the states, or the House, or ANYTHING other than actually certifying the election.

It was a last ditch effort. It was probably doomed to failure whether they stormed the capitol or not. In fact, storming the capitol was probably counterproductive because it turned public opinion against them. And I don't know how they figured storming the capitol would have helped them achieve the goal--that was just pure mob action.

But don't say they didn't have a goal. The goal was to stop Pence and Congress from certifying the electors.


That's not a goal, that's an outlandish idea, with no goal and no plan to achieve that goal.

Sorry guys, this was not a coup attempt.  People that have actually seen coups, people that live in revolutionary war-torn countries, are rolling their eyes at this hyperbolic categorization of what was an unruly and somewhat violent mob.  

I'm certainly not saying Trump is blameless, he's the rouser that stirred the rabble.  

But I'm also saying this was not a coup attempt.

I AM the middle ground on this one.

 

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