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Topic: In other news ...

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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #2646 on: February 15, 2021, 05:12:28 PM »
Let's imagine two Teslas pull up to a charger.  One starts charging at X rate and the other also charges at X rate.  The total charge is clearly 2x rate.

Two separate battery packs, two separate chargers.  The total amount of charging is twice as fast in terms of Kwhrs per minute.

The packs happen to  be in different cars instead of one car.
Yeah, but you're also now talking about doubling the total battery capacity, not merely splitting it into two half-sized packs. 

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #2647 on: February 15, 2021, 05:20:43 PM »
It's an analogy, it makes no difference.  The charging rate is double with two separated battery packs regardless of the capacity of the batteries.

Put two half sized isolated packs in one car with two charging ports connected to two chargers.  They charge twice as fast, inherently.


betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #2648 on: February 15, 2021, 05:45:25 PM »
It's an analogy, it makes no difference.  The charging rate is double with two separated battery packs regardless of the capacity of the batteries.

Put two half sized isolated packs in one car with two charging ports connected to two chargers.  They charge twice as fast, inherently.
Only if the capability of the chargers is the limiting factor...

Look at the graph shown above, relative to the charging rate of a Model 3 Long Range plotted against the current charge state of the batteries. 

A Tesla v3 Supercharger can go 250kW. The batteries, for a VERY short time and portion of their charge capability, can exceed 250kW, but from about 21% charge until 100%, the battery is the limiting factor, not the charger. 

As mentioned, you can't look at a Tesla Model 3 LR as one "battery pack". That battery pack consists of hundreds of battery cells segmented into multiple cells per module, and the modules are then built into the overall "battery pack". I believe they're isolated at the module level. But the key factor is that the cells themselves CANNOT take charge beyond a certain rate. 

From here: https://evannex.com/blogs/news/understanding-teslas-lithium-ion-batteries


Quote
One of the key requirements for electric car batteries, especially on road trips, is that they need to be recharged relatively quickly.  Since batteries are direct current (DC) devices and home electrical service is AC, charging at home typically uses a 240 volt circuit supplying 40 amperes (about 10 kW of power).  The car has built in charging circuitry that rectifies the AC, converting it to DC.  Charging this way typically takes several hours.  Tesla has installed Supercharger DC charging stations worldwide that supply up to about 135 kW of power.  The DC bypasses the car's charging circuitry and charges the battery pack directly.  This is much faster, requiring 20 to 40 minutes typically.

The Tesla battery packs using Panasonic 18650 batteries can charge no faster than this.  The maximum charging voltage for a Panasonic cell is 4.2 volts.  Panasonic specifies a maximum charging current of 2 amperes per cell.  Tesla allows charging current to be up to 4 amperes.  Therefore the maximum power that a Tesla battery pack can can use for charging is 4.2 X N X I where N is the number of cells in the pack and I is the maximum current allowed per cell.  For 85/90 kWh packs this is 7,104 X 16.8=119.3 kW.  For the 100 kWh packs it is 8,256 X 16.8=138.7 kW.  There is no way to charge faster without increasing the maximum charging current per cell which might hasten degradation of the cells or worse.


The Tesla Model 3 cars will use the Gigafactory manufactured 2170 cells mentioned above.  The larger cells may be able to use more than 4 amperes of charging current which would hasten charging but, because the 2170 cells have more energy storage capacity than the 18650 cells, proportionately fewer will be needed to create a pack with a given kWh rating.  (N gets smaller, I gets larger). This means that higher power charging is meaningless for these battery packs.  The 4.2 X N X I relationship still applies.  It will be interesting to see how these new battery cells perform.
Note that I was off by an order of magnitude or so... Tesla battery modules consist of hundreds of cells each, and Tesla battery packs consist of thousands...

And that 2 A/cell or 4 A/cell is a maximum rate. As the above graph shows, charging slows down as you fill the battery, so this is merely PEAK charging rate.

If you split the same battery pack into two battery packs without adding cells, you have not added aggregate charge rate. Therefore isolation doesn't allow them to charge faster. 

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #2649 on: February 15, 2021, 05:48:15 PM »
I'm not understanding your objection at all.  I don't think you understand my concept.

FearlessF

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #2650 on: February 15, 2021, 06:26:14 PM »
Elon Musk hasn't thought about the concept either, apparently

makes perfect sense to this old dirt farmer
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #2651 on: February 15, 2021, 06:27:05 PM »
I'm not understanding your objection at all.  I don't think you understand my concept.
I think I do... 

My point is that the charging speed of the battery is inherently limited by the capacity of the battery. That's it. The battery is comprised of a fixed number of cells that is the capacity of the battery divided by the capacity of each individual cell.

Those cells, even though they're integrated into a "pack", are not a single source. Those cells are built into modules, and my belief is that the modules are already isolated from each other when it comes to charging/etc. You have lots of modules within a pack. Therefore the idea of splitting "packs" has already been done. So there's no advantage to splitting into two packs when the modules are already isolated. 

So then you look at what accomplishes the isolation... You have circuitry that does that, that controls charging rates, controls regenerative braking charging rates, that controls charge dissipation, etc. 

There's no point in doubling that circuitry and isolating it into two distinct "packs", because it's inherently capable of splitting the input as needed by each individual module. 

So finally you get to the charging ports and the chargers themselves. As long as the charging port is capable of handling 250kW, and the charger is capable of handling 250kW, there is NO advantage to splitting them. 

As long as one port and one charger can supply the aggregate max charging rate of the battery, you DON'T gain any advantage by doubling ports or doubling chargers.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #2652 on: February 15, 2021, 06:43:42 PM »
New neighbors are moving in next door today... Noticed when their golden retriever was peering at our golden retriever through the fence between the backyards lol... So hopefully Jake has a new friend.

Kris60

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #2653 on: February 15, 2021, 06:58:54 PM »
What’s up with the name change, Bwar?

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #2654 on: February 15, 2021, 07:07:41 PM »
What’s up with the name change, Bwar?
Previous handle contained my actual last name, so figured I'd change to something less personally identifiable for google search reasons... Particularly when I badmouth my ex lol...

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #2655 on: February 15, 2021, 07:09:15 PM »
The charging rate obviously doubles when you use two chargers for two battery packs.  It's a simple concept.


FearlessF

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #2656 on: February 15, 2021, 07:20:19 PM »
Previous handle contained my actual last name, so figured I'd change to something less personally identifiable for google search reasons... Particularly when I badmouth my ex lol...
he's not scared, but he's a little nervous
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

longhorn320

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #2657 on: February 15, 2021, 07:25:59 PM »
Previous handle contained my actual last name, so figured I'd change to something less personally identifiable for google search reasons... Particularly when I badmouth my ex lol...
is there a meaning to the 4 Greek letters you use in your name?
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #2658 on: February 15, 2021, 07:33:42 PM »
The charging rate obviously doubles when you use two chargers for two battery packs.  It's a simple concept.
Not at all... Again...


Quote
The Tesla battery packs using Panasonic 18650 batteries can charge no faster than this.  The maximum charging voltage for a Panasonic cell is 4.2 volts.  Panasonic specifies a maximum charging current of 2 amperes per cell.  Tesla allows charging current to be up to 4 amperes.  Therefore the maximum power that a Tesla battery pack can can use for charging is 4.2 X N X I where N is the number of cells in the pack and I is the maximum current allowed per cell.  For 85/90 kWh packs this is 7,104 X 16.8=119.3 kW.  For the 100 kWh packs it is 8,256 X 16.8=138.7 kW.  There is no way to charge faster without increasing the maximum charging current per cell which might hasten degradation of the cells or worse.

If you have a 100kWh pack, that's comprised of individual cells which limit the aggregate charging power. 

Maximum possible charging power is 138.7 kW. 

If you have a 50kWh pack, maximum charging power is half that, or 69.4 kW.

You're saying that by cutting the packs in half, and separating the chargers, you can achieve a maximum charging power of 2x of 138.7 kW, or 277.4 kW.

But that's not possible. By breaking the packs in two, you haven't doubled the number of cells. Therefore you haven't increased the aggregate maximum charging power. 

AS I HAVE CONCEDED, if the charger isn't capable of achieving the maximum charging power, there is an advantage to putting multiple chargers in parallel. But as long as you have an adequate charger, there is NOT a doubling of charging rate. 

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #2659 on: February 15, 2021, 07:33:52 PM »
is there a meaning to the 4 Greek letters you use in your name?
Spelling.

 

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