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Topic: In other news ...

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medinabuckeye1

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24010 on: May 26, 2023, 12:17:02 PM »
Everything you said about the military/strategic reasoning to drop the bombs is true, but that also doesn't mean that American racism didn't play a factor in more willingness to drop the bombs than if had been Europeans. And pointing out Japan's racism (which is true and I don't disagree) also doesn't mean that American racism didn't play a factor in more willingness to drop the bombs than if it had been Europeans.

Granted, I certainly haven't proven my assertion that it played a factor either. But I think there was more of a prevailing attitude to think of the Japanese as "other" in the 1940s in a way that wasn't true of the Germans or Italians, and probably as well of the Russians who had just been our ally.
I'm going to quote my last sentence from my reply to @847badgerfan :
If you were Truman, could you have faced Charlie's or Ralph's mom after they were killed and said "yeah, I could have prevented your son's death but I chose not to." 
It isn't provable one way or another.  You've conceded the military/strategic situation and I'll concede that most Americans were racist then in a way that would be shocking to our modern sensibilities.  

That said, I've provided ample non-racist justification to drop the bomb and I'll add here that it was developed with the intention to use it against the Germans.  I think it is unfair to assume racism.  

What I am saying is that the outcome of this debate is dependent upon who has the burden of proof.  You can't prove your assertion and I can't prove that it is false.  My opinion is that the burden is on the accuser.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24011 on: May 26, 2023, 12:18:40 PM »
yeah, I don't know. I tend to think using nuclear weapons at all was pretty god damn evil. I don't know if there is a justification for using them. To be honest. Like ever. The scary thing is the nuclear weapons developed in the years after were significantly more powerful and devastating...like imagine a hydrogen bomb like the tsar bomba dropped over a major city....it would've basically killed everyone in the damn city. Guess humanity is lucky af those weren't developed in time for us to find out.
I strongly reject the assertion that an action that saved literally MILLIONS of lives was "pretty god damn evil."  

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24012 on: May 26, 2023, 12:33:53 PM »
Don't forget that to develop the bombs, entire cities were built in TN, NM, and WA.  Tens of thousands of people worked for years to just provide the infrastructure for the smart group of guys to bring them to a reality.  
.
We didn't do all of that just to not use them.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

medinabuckeye1

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24013 on: May 26, 2023, 12:39:38 PM »
If you've never visited Chicago and want to do so, you best get it done sooner than later.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/chicago-budget-plan-brandon-johnson-saqib-bhatti-acre-peoples-unity-platform-95c775c7?st=iuvi6pwdov86n7u&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
https://www.wsj.com/articles/chicago-budget-plan-brandon-johnson-saqib-bhatti-acre-peoples-unity-platform-95c775c7?st=iuvi6pwdov86n7u&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
I think that wokeism was invented to eliminate satire.

Chicago is suffering from rapidly rising crime and the response is to gut the PD. What could go wrong?

Then there are proposals to tax transactions at the options and futures markets. Do these loons not understand that with modern technology these transactions could easily be moved to the suburbs, another state, or the cloud?

Idea:
Let's crank up taxes on our productive citizens and fail to protect them from violent criminals and see what happens.

Honestbuckeye

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24014 on: May 26, 2023, 12:41:47 PM »
I've got a few good books on Operation Downfall but I can't think of any titles off the top of my head.  I will, however, cover one thing here that is very important to understanding the end of WWII. 

When I was a kid my dad used to refer to what he called "the Ho Chi Minh, how to beat the Americans book".  The thing is, as I learned more about the Pacific War I learned that the book wasn't actually invented by Ho Chi Minh, it was invented by the Japanese and should probably be called the "Hirohito book of how to beat the Americans." 

If you are charged with defending an island against a numerically superior and much more well equipped force your only chance of successfully repelling the invasion is to defend the beach so as to prevent your superior enemy from getting a foothold.  If you fail at this your enemy will eventually conquer the island simply due to their superior numbers and supplies/equipment. 

Prior to Okinawa in most of the US invasions of Japanese held islands the Japanese attempted to repel the invasion by fighting desperately to defend the beach so as to prevent the US from getting a foothold and eventually taking the island. 
The Battle of Okinawa represented a significant departure from the Japanese battle plans in the previous island invasions.  By the time the US got to Okinawa (April, 1945) the Japanese realized that they couldn't actually repel the invasion.  They were vastly outnumbered (roughly 5:1) and they had no hope of resupply while the Americans had all the equipment, fuel, ammunition, and supplies they could want.  Consequently, the Japanese adopted a strategy designed specifically to maximize American casualties.  Rather than trying to defend the beach where they would get pulverized by American pre-invasion naval bombardment and airstrikes, the Japanese instead built an incredibly elaborate network of tunnels and other defensive works and instructed their troops that they needed to take out 10 Americans each. 

The casualties on Okinawa were horrific.  The US lost around 12,500 killed or missing and suffered a total of around 50k casualties including wounded.  The Japanese lose around 110,00 killed with comparatively few wounded (they just kept fighting until killed) and a few (mostly unconscious) captured. 

The Japanese also applied the same principle to their Kamikaze strikes.  When they first employed Kamikaze's they tried to use them to destroy American Carriers, Battleships, and Cruisers on the theory that they needed to take those out first, THEN they would be able to sink the destroyers and transports.  Fortunately for the US, this meant that the Kamikaze attacks were not as deadly as you might think.  The Carriers were usually FAR out to sea so very few Kamikazes actually reached them.  Battleships were closer to conduct shore bombardment but Battleships are also sufficiently armored that the Kamikazes generally didn't do much damage to them.  If you go see the Missouri while you are in Hawaii there is a dent in the rail that was caused by a Japanese Kamikaze strike. 

IIRC, Okinawa was the first place where Kamikazes were used against amphibious ships.  These ships are much closer to shore than Carriers and much less armored than Battleships.  Additionally, they were LOADED with troops weighted down by all of their equipment.  The results were predictable. 

Okinawa was basically a final rehearsal for Japanese plans to defend their home islands.  Rather than seeing their Kamikaze's shot down attempting to get to carriers or bounce off of Battleships they planned to use them against vulnerable transports and amphibious assault ships.  Rather than being pulverized by pre-invasion bombardment while preparing to defend the beach they planned to use tunnels and other defensive works to maximize American casualties. 

If you think about it, this is ultimately how Ho Chi Minh managed to beat the Americans 20-30 years later.  Like the Japanese of 1945, Ho Chi Minh knew that he didn't have the necessary forces to actually meet the Americans on a battlefield and have any chance of winning but he figured out that if he dragged things out long enough and inflicted enough casualties the US would eventually decide that it simply wasn't worth it to fight him. 

What worked for Ho Chi Minh did NOT work for Hirohito because the US simply didn't give Hirohito enough time.  This strategy is ultimately dependent on the US not pouring in enough resources to win BEFORE US public support declines to problematic levels.  US leadership in 1945 understood this.  They planned the invasion for November, 1946 because that was as soon as they could do it and they KNEW that they were up against a clock. 

Two quick personal stories after something Truman said.  I'm sure if I spent some time googling I could find it but after the war Truman said something to the effect that he couldn't have faced the families of deceased American troops if he had been able to use the bomb and chosen not to.  Two of those potential causalities were friends of mine much later:
A guy named Ralph got me to volunteer for the American Legion Buckeye Boy's State.  You ( @847badgerfan ) will appreciate that the guy I work with now is from Wisconsin and attended Badger Boy's State years ago. Anyway, Ralph graduated from Medina High School on June 6, 1944.  That is D-Day, the date of the Normandy Invasion for anyone still reading who doesn't already know that.  Six months later he was in a repro-depot (replacement depot for green new troops ready to replace casualties) and got sent to the outskirts of the Battle of the Bulge as an artilleryman.  At the end of the war in Europe the US instituted a point system to determine who would get to go home first.  Guys got points for service time, time under fire, being married, having kids, etc.  My friend Ralph had been in combat for a few months but that was nothing compared to guys who had chased Rommel across North Africa, taken Sicily, landed at Anzio, landed at Normandy, then chased the Nazi's from Le Harve to the Rhine and beyond so he was not going home anytime soon.  He once told me that when the Japanese surrendered he was at a train station somewhere in Indiana when an "old" (probably younger than me now) guy drove by, saw his uniform, and said "Go home soldier, war's over".  Ralph was in Indiana because he had been shipped back to the US on the Queen Mary and ordered to report to some Army base in California for shipment to an undisclosed location in the Pacific.  He'd have been part of the invasion of Japan. 

Another guy I knew named Charlie was a year younger than Ralph.  He graduated from Medina High School in June, 1945.  By that time the Germans had already surrendered and, as a young and dumb guy, Charlie wanted to get into the war.  He joined the Navy because he figured they were the branch doing most of the fighting against Japan.  In later life Charlie said that he was a WWII veteran in name only because he was finishing up learning to be a tailgunner when Japan surrendered.  Charlie always said that the Bombs saved his life.  That was probably overly dramatic but it also was far from impossible.  Charlie ended up as a plankowner on the USS Midway.  In Naval parlance, "plankowners" are guys in the initial crew of a ship.  Midway was the first post-Essex class carrier and it was commissioned a few days after Japan surrendered. 

If Japan had not surrendered Ralph would have been hitting some beach on Kyushu and Charlie would have been flying over him in the back of a Torpedo Plane (Torpedo planes were used as level bombers when there were no more Japanese ships to use torpedos against).  If you were Truman, could you have faced Charlie's or Ralph's mom after they were killed and said "yeah, I could have prevented your son's death but I chose not to." 

Amazing post Medina.  I enjoyed EVERY word of it.
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
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847badgerfan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24015 on: May 26, 2023, 12:44:40 PM »
Amazing post Medina.  I enjoyed EVERY word of it.
Same. Thanks MB!!
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24016 on: May 26, 2023, 12:45:33 PM »
Don't forget that to develop the bombs, entire cities were built in TN, NM, and WA.  Tens of thousands of people worked for years to just provide the infrastructure for the smart group of guys to bring them to a reality. 
.
We didn't do all of that just to not use them.
Earlier in the war when Truman was still a Senator he started probing the Manhattan Project expenditures. Truman had a reputation as a cost cutting budget hawk and wanted to know where all this money (and it was a fantastic amount of money) was going. A general was dispatched from the White House to meet with Truman. He told the Senator"I can't tell you what it is, but if it works the war will be over."


NOTE for @betarhoalphadelta , this was when Germany was still the most dangerous foe and indicates an assumption of intentions to use the bomb against them.

847badgerfan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24017 on: May 26, 2023, 12:47:03 PM »
I think that wokeism was invented to eliminate satire.

Chicago is suffering from rapidly rising crime and the response is to gut the PD. What could go wrong?

Then there are proposals to tax transactions at the options and futures markets. Do these loons not understand that with modern technology these transactions could easily be moved to the suburbs, another state, or the cloud?

Idea:
Let's crank up taxes on our productive citizens and fail to protect them from violent criminals and see what happens.
When did this sh.. stuff actually start? 2010 or so?

Chicago is screwed. It will be nothing more than a place to connect flights and route trains.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

847badgerfan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24018 on: May 26, 2023, 12:56:48 PM »
Earlier in the war when Truman was still a Senator he started probing the Manhattan Project expenditures. Truman had a reputation as a cost cutting budget hawk and wanted to know where all this money (and it was a fantastic amount of money) was going. A general was dispatched from the White House to meet with Truman. He told the Senator"I can't tell you what it is, but if it works the war will be over."


NOTE for @betarhoalphadelta , this was when Germany was still the most dangerous foe and indicates an assumption of intentions to use the bomb against them.
MANHATTAN PROJECT

Music: Geddy Lee and Alex Lifeson
Lyrics: Neil Peart


Imagine a time
When it all began
In the dying days of a war
A weapon — that would settle the score
Whoever found it first
Would be sure to do their worst —
They always had before…

Imagine a man
Where it all began
A scientist pacing the floor
In each nation — always eager to explore
To build the best big stick
To turn the winning trick —
But this was something more…


Quote
The big bang — took and shook the world
Shot down the rising sun
The end was begun — it would hit everyone
When the chain reaction was done
The big shots — try to hold it back
Fools try to wish it away
The hopeful depend on a world without end
Whatever the hopeless may say

Imagine a place
Where it all began
They gathered from across the land
To work in the secrecy of the desert sand
All of the brightest boys
To play with the biggest toys —
More than they bargained for…

Imagine a man
When it all began
The pilot of “Enola Gay”
Flying out of the shockwave
On that August day
All the powers that be
And the course of history,
Would be changed for evermore…



U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

utee94

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24019 on: May 26, 2023, 01:19:22 PM »
Really sad too because Chicago is one of America's truly great cities.

847badgerfan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24020 on: May 26, 2023, 01:29:16 PM »
Really sad too because Chicago is one of America's truly great cities.
Was.

Last month was the final chance to turn things around, and they (voters) failed.

Miserably.
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Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24021 on: May 26, 2023, 02:10:22 PM »
We killed more Japanese civilians fire bombing Tokyo than the A bomb killed in Hiroshima.  

The estimates for how many Americans would have died assaulting mainland Japan are frequently over estimated, or just misquoted.  An original estimate was "up to half a million casualties".  This got reported in histories by some as a million, but it's casualties, not KIA.  And that estimate was downward revised in later estimates.  And of course, nobody knew for sure.

Japan was on the edge of starvation had the war gong on into the winter.  We could have isolated the islands completely with relative ease.

The B-29 project cost quite a bit more than the Manhattan project, and you have to have the B-29 to carry one A bomb.  (The Lancaster could have with some mods and over shorter ranges.)  The B24/17 did not have the load capacity to carry one.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24022 on: May 26, 2023, 02:36:00 PM »
Was.

Last month was the final chance to turn things around, and they (voters) failed.

Miserably.
We'll have to see not what Brandon SAYS, but what he DOES.

My understanding is that Lightfoot got tossed in large part due to crime. Obviously the woke theory that if we sing Kum By Yah, read poetry to the gangsters, and ask them to stop doing bad things they'll become productive citizens doesn't work.

That said, this isn't new. I visited New York in the spring of 1994. That was pretty much the height of NYC crime and I thought it was a crap hole and planned NEVER to go back.

Crime got so bad in NYC that the overwhelmingly Democratic voters elected Republican Rudy Guilliani Mayor twice. Then they elected Bloomberg who more-or-less maintained Guilliani's crime policies* three times.

My (now) wife wanted me to take her to the Macy's Parade so I did, in 2015. I was absolutely astounded at the massive change in the ~20 years between my visits. NYC circa 2015 was reasonably crime free and very much a livable city.

Many of the people around Brandon are hopeless. They are true believers in the worst extremes of wokeism. I think it is too early to tell where Brandon will shake out.

As a politician he *SHOULD* realize that the crime issue that got him into the Mayor's office in 2023 could just as easily get him out of the Mayor's office in 2027.

There is another political factor at play here. I think that Lightfoot's demise shows that, even in Chicago, Brandon's biggest vulnerability is to his right, not his left. If he talks a somewhat woke walk while walking a more reality-based walk he'll be nearly invincible.

*Bloomberg started out as, at least nominally, a Republican and even after he dropped that ruse he remained more-or-less true to Guilliani's crime policies until he had to repudiate things like stop and frisk to have a prayer in the Democratic Presidential Primary.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24023 on: May 26, 2023, 02:37:32 PM »
I'm going to quote my last sentence from my reply to @847badgerfan :It isn't provable one way or another.  You've conceded the military/strategic situation and I'll concede that most Americans were racist then in a way that would be shocking to our modern sensibilities. 

That said, I've provided ample non-racist justification to drop the bomb and I'll add here that it was developed with the intention to use it against the Germans.  I think it is unfair to assume racism. 

What I am saying is that the outcome of this debate is dependent upon who has the burden of proof.  You can't prove your assertion and I can't prove that it is false.  My opinion is that the burden is on the accuser. 
Fair enough. Given that an accusation of racism is neither necessary nor sufficient to explain the use of the bomb, I'll retract that. 

Especially since I think farther ahead to the Cold War, and while there were many reasons that never went hot nor nuclear, I don't recall anyone saying that the reason we shouldn't nuke them was that the Russkies looked like us. 

Good discussion, and thanks for your thoughts on it Medina. 

 

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