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Topic: In other news ...

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847badgerfan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23996 on: May 26, 2023, 10:55:17 AM »
I plan to visit betarhoalphadelta some fine day.
and parts north of him, not south
Too far North of him is LA. If you're gonna head North from him, you best stop at Belmont Shore.

South of him is much better.

We used to day trip from Belmont to Dania on the PCH. Good times.
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23997 on: May 26, 2023, 11:00:55 AM »
Absolutely there was.
No, there wasn't. This is false history pushed by anti-American leftists.

For starters, the Japanese were far more racist than Americans. Their entire worldview was shaped by a conceptual racial hierarchy with Japanese at the top.

In the summer of 1945 mopping up operations on Okinawa and Iwo Jima were underway and, since Germany had already surrendered, the British, Dutch, French, and Americans were transferring a fearsome amount of weaponry to the Pacific.

Japan never could have defeated an undistracted Britain let alone the United States. This statement is based on economics not race. Japan's economy was about one-third the size of Britain's and less than one-tenth the size of the US. Their leaders knew this and on some level understood the hopelessness of their situation. Their people were starving and their few remaining ships and planes were stranded due to lack of fuel. They could have surrendered at any time.

Instead of surrendering the leadership of Japan was sending instructions to their ambassador in Moscow to try to get the Soviets to mediate a peace on terms that anyone could see would be unacceptable to the US and Britain who had made abundantly clear that their terms were "unconditional surrender".

In their instructions to their ambassador in Moscow they were literally trying to use territories that they no longer possessed as bargaining chips.

The US and British leadership read the messages between Tokyo and their ambassador in Moscow because both Britain and the US had broken the Japanese diplomatic codes. Thus, Washington and London knew that Japan had not yet accepted the reality of their situation.

In the midst of all this Truman and the US leadership considered three basic options (Note that I've left Atlee out because although the British Pacific Fleet (BPF) was fantastically powerful by pre-war standards, by 1945 it was miniscule compared to the forces that the US had arrayed against Japan):
  • Blockade. The Japanese were effectively out of fuel and rapidly heading toward mass starvation because they couldn’t produce enough food domestically to feed their population. The US blockade by this point was very nearly impenetrable so the argument for this option was to simply let the Japanese people starve until they got hungry enough to surrender.
  • Invade. With the resources freed up by the end of the war in Europe the US had more than enough men and equipment to take the Japanese home islands by force. The main argument for this option was that it was the only one that was guaranteed to end the war.
  • Atomic Bombs. The US leadership did understand the fearsome power of these weapons but they probably didn't fully appreciate it. One argument against the use of the bombs was that the firebombing campaign had been so successful that there weren't many Japanese cities left worth bombing.


Truman chose to pursue all three options. The blockade was continued, preparations for an invasion scheduled for November of 1945 went on, and two bombs were dropped.

That the bombs saved American lives is obvious. Allied planners had estimated a Million casualties in the planned invasion of Japan (Operation Downfall). The interesting thing is that the bombs actually saved far more Japanese lives. Japanese casualties defending on Okinawa and Iwo Jima were many times US casualties so their losses defending Honshu would easily have reached seven digits. Approximately one-quarter of the civilian population of Okinawa were either killed or committed suicide during the Battle of Okinawa.  Extrapolated out to the entire population of Japan that is around 17-18 Million people.  The blockade would have caused a substantial portion of Japan's population to literally die of starvation over the winter of 1945/46.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2023, 11:21:54 AM by medinabuckeye1 »

847badgerfan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23998 on: May 26, 2023, 11:09:07 AM »
No, there wasn't. This is false history pushed by anti-American leftists.
I've often thought of that, but when I talk to my many Eurofriends and they think the same. As you said, Japan was already in ruin anyway. So why wreck Europe even more?

I'd like to learn more about this false history take. I'd hate to say I fell for it, but if I did, I'm happy to be corrected.
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FearlessF

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23999 on: May 26, 2023, 11:20:56 AM »
Too far North of him is LA. If you're gonna head North from him, you best stop at Belmont Shore.

South of him is much better.

We used to day trip from Belmont to Dania on the PCH. Good times.
WAAAY north
Monterey and further north
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Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24000 on: May 26, 2023, 11:22:51 AM »
Or just take the Brightline to Miami.
I'm only like an hr drive so I'd just drive if I can avoid the rush hour times. Is Miami a major city though? I don't know, maybe I've been here so long and been coming down here all my life I just don't really consider a major city. It's definitely becoming one though, that's for sure. It's changed so much in the last 20 years. Believe I read something that around half of the skyscrapers in Miami were built in the last 20 years or so. And they are building sh&t load more of them right now, and seems like a new one is announced every week.

847badgerfan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24001 on: May 26, 2023, 11:28:23 AM »
I'm only like an hr drive so I'd just drive if I can avoid the rush hour times. Is Miami a major city though? I don't know, maybe I've been here so long and been coming down here all my life I just don't really consider a major city. It's definitely becoming one though, that's for sure. It's changed so much in the last 20 years. Believe I read something that around half of the skyscrapers in Miami were built in the last 20 years or so. And they are building sh&t load more of them right now, and seems like a new one is announced every week.
I think it is now. Not 20 years ago. You've seen it grow up so maybe it's like the guy that gains 20 pounds over time and thinks he looks the same. Then he sees a friend he hasn't for 5 years who shares a picture of them 5 years ago. The reaction is "holy shit".
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Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24002 on: May 26, 2023, 11:29:29 AM »
No, there wasn't. This is false history pushed by anti-American leftists.

For starters, the Japanese were far more racist than Americans. Their entire worldview was shaped by a conceptual racial hierarchy with Japanese at the top.

In the summer of 1945 mopping up operations on Okinawa and Iwo Jima were underway and, since Germany had already surrendered, the British, Dutch, French, and Americans were transferring a fearsome amount of weaponry to the Pacific.

Japan never could have defeated an undistracted Britain let alone the United States. This statement is based on economics not race. Japan's economy was about one-third the size of Britain's and less than one-tenth the size of the US. Their leaders knew this and on some level understood the hopelessness of their situation. Their people were starving and their few remaining ships and planes were stranded due to lack of fuel. They could have surrendered at any time.

Instead of surrendering the leadership of Japan was sending instructions to their ambassador in Moscow to try to get the Soviets to mediate a peace on terms that anyone could see would be unacceptable to the US and Britain who had made abundantly clear that their terms were "unconditional surrender".

In their instructions to their ambassador in Moscow they were literally trying to use territories that they no longer possessed as bargaining chips.

The US and British leadership read the messages between Tokyo and their ambassador in Moscow because both Britain and the US had broken the Japanese diplomatic codes. Thus, Washington and London knew that Japan had not yet accepted the reality of their situation.

In the midst of all this Truman and the US leadership considered three basic options (Note that I've left Atlee out because although the British Pacific Fleet (BPF) was fantastically powerful by pre-war standards, by 1945 it was miniscule compared to the forces that the US had arrayed against Japan):
  • Blockade. The Japanese were effectively out of fuel and rapidly heading toward mass starvation because they couldn’t produce enough food domestically to feed their population. The US blockade by this point was very nearly impenetrable so the argument for this option was to simply let the Japanese people starve until they got hungry enough to surrender.
  • Invade. With the resources freed up by the end of the war in Europe the US had more than enough men and equipment to take the Japanese home islands by force. The main argument for this option was that it was the only one that was guaranteed to end the war.
  • Atomic Bombs. The US leadership did understand the fearsome power of these weapons but they probably didn't fully appreciate it. One argument against the use of the bombs was that the firebombing campaign had been so successful that there weren't many Japanese cities left worth bombing.


Truman chose to pursue all three options. The blockade was continued, preparations for an invasion scheduled for November of 1945 went on, and two bombs were dropped.

That the bombs saved American lives is obvious. Allied planners had estimated a Million casualties in the planned invasion of Japan (Operation Downfall). The interesting thing is that the bombs actually saved far more Japanese lives. Japanese casualties defending on Okinawa and Iwo Jima were many times US casualties so their losses defending Honshu would easily have reached seven digits. Approximately one-quarter of the civilian population of Okinawa were either killed or committed suicide during the Battle of Okinawa.  Extrapolated out to the entire population of Japan that is around 17-18 Million people.  The blockade would have caused a substantial portion of Japan's population to literally die of starvation over the winter of 1945/46.
yeah, I don't know. I tend to think using nuclear weapons at all was pretty god damn evil. I don't know if there is a justification for using them. To be honest. Like ever. The scary thing is the nuclear weapons developed in the years after were significantly more powerful and devastating...like imagine a hydrogen bomb like the tsar bomba dropped over a major city....it would've basically killed everyone in the damn city. Guess humanity is lucky af those weren't developed in time for us to find out.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24003 on: May 26, 2023, 11:31:50 AM »
I used to LOVE visiting my BIL (RIP bro) in Belmont Shore. Really cool area.
Yeah, about the only reason I ever cross into LA County is that my wife grew up in Long Beach and still has her closest friends there. So we are up there seeing them fairly regularly.

I plan to visit betarhoalphadelta some fine day.
and parts north of him, not south

Well, south of me is San Diego, and that's worth visiting. But if you're going north, go MUCH farther north, skip straight past/through LA to the central coast (gorgeous) or coastal/wine regions north of SF (wine country, beautiful nature, and the redwoods if you go even farther North). 

FearlessF

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24004 on: May 26, 2023, 11:32:35 AM »
whatever happened to the neutron bomb??

I guess it was developed but never used
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FearlessF

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24005 on: May 26, 2023, 11:33:14 AM »
Well, south of me is San Diego, and that's worth visiting. But if you're going north, go MUCH farther north, skip straight past/through LA to the central coast (gorgeous) or coastal/wine regions north of SF (wine country, beautiful nature, and the redwoods if you go even farther North).
yup
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Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24006 on: May 26, 2023, 11:53:34 AM »
whatever happened to the neutron bomb??

I guess it was developed but never used
It was a topic in the Carter Administration as I recall and never deployed.  It was still a pretty large bomb in terms of explosive power.

There also was a cobalt bomb that was feared could be the end of us all.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24007 on: May 26, 2023, 11:57:20 AM »
No, there wasn't. This is false history pushed by anti-American leftists.

For starters, the Japanese were far more racist than Americans. Their entire worldview was shaped by a conceptual racial hierarchy with Japanese at the top.
Everything you said about the military/strategic reasoning to drop the bombs is true, but that also doesn't mean that American racism didn't play a factor in more willingness to drop the bombs than if had been Europeans. And pointing out Japan's racism (which is true and I don't disagree) also doesn't mean that American racism didn't play a factor in more willingness to drop the bombs than if it had been Europeans.

Granted, I certainly haven't proven my assertion that it played a factor either. But I think there was more of a prevailing attitude to think of the Japanese as "other" in the 1940s in a way that wasn't true of the Germans or Italians, and probably as well of the Russians who had just been our ally. 

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24008 on: May 26, 2023, 12:00:49 PM »
We did fire bomb the crap out of some Germans cities of course.  That caused close to as many deaths as the A bomb, Hamburg, Dresden...

We bombed some French cities heavily as well, Orlean really got hit hard.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24009 on: May 26, 2023, 12:09:34 PM »
I've often thought of that, but when I talk to my many Eurofriends and they think the same. As you said, Japan was already in ruin anyway. So why wreck Europe even more?

I'd like to learn more about this false history take. I'd hate to say I fell for it, but if I did, I'm happy to be corrected.
I've got a few good books on Operation Downfall but I can't think of any titles off the top of my head.  I will, however, cover one thing here that is very important to understanding the end of WWII. 

When I was a kid my dad used to refer to what he called "the Ho Chi Minh, how to beat the Americans book".  The thing is, as I learned more about the Pacific War I learned that the book wasn't actually invented by Ho Chi Minh, it was invented by the Japanese and should probably be called the "Hirohito book of how to beat the Americans." 

If you are charged with defending an island against a numerically superior and much more well equipped force your only chance of successfully repelling the invasion is to defend the beach so as to prevent your superior enemy from getting a foothold.  If you fail at this your enemy will eventually conquer the island simply due to their superior numbers and supplies/equipment. 

Prior to Okinawa in most of the US invasions of Japanese held islands the Japanese attempted to repel the invasion by fighting desperately to defend the beach so as to prevent the US from getting a foothold and eventually taking the island. 
The Battle of Okinawa represented a significant departure from the Japanese battle plans in the previous island invasions.  By the time the US got to Okinawa (April, 1945) the Japanese realized that they couldn't actually repel the invasion.  They were vastly outnumbered (roughly 5:1) and they had no hope of resupply while the Americans had all the equipment, fuel, ammunition, and supplies they could want.  Consequently, the Japanese adopted a strategy designed specifically to maximize American casualties.  Rather than trying to defend the beach where they would get pulverized by American pre-invasion naval bombardment and airstrikes, the Japanese instead built an incredibly elaborate network of tunnels and other defensive works and instructed their troops that they needed to take out 10 Americans each. 

The casualties on Okinawa were horrific.  The US lost around 12,500 killed or missing and suffered a total of around 50k casualties including wounded.  The Japanese lose around 110,00 killed with comparatively few wounded (they just kept fighting until killed) and a few (mostly unconscious) captured. 

The Japanese also applied the same principle to their Kamikaze strikes.  When they first employed Kamikaze's they tried to use them to destroy American Carriers, Battleships, and Cruisers on the theory that they needed to take those out first, THEN they would be able to sink the destroyers and transports.  Fortunately for the US, this meant that the Kamikaze attacks were not as deadly as you might think.  The Carriers were usually FAR out to sea so very few Kamikazes actually reached them.  Battleships were closer to conduct shore bombardment but Battleships are also sufficiently armored that the Kamikazes generally didn't do much damage to them.  If you go see the Missouri while you are in Hawaii there is a dent in the rail that was caused by a Japanese Kamikaze strike. 

IIRC, Okinawa was the first place where Kamikazes were used against amphibious ships.  These ships are much closer to shore than Carriers and much less armored than Battleships.  Additionally, they were LOADED with troops weighted down by all of their equipment.  The results were predictable. 

Okinawa was basically a final rehearsal for Japanese plans to defend their home islands.  Rather than seeing their Kamikaze's shot down attempting to get to carriers or bounce off of Battleships they planned to use them against vulnerable transports and amphibious assault ships.  Rather than being pulverized by pre-invasion bombardment while preparing to defend the beach they planned to use tunnels and other defensive works to maximize American casualties. 

If you think about it, this is ultimately how Ho Chi Minh managed to beat the Americans 20-30 years later.  Like the Japanese of 1945, Ho Chi Minh knew that he didn't have the necessary forces to actually meet the Americans on a battlefield and have any chance of winning but he figured out that if he dragged things out long enough and inflicted enough casualties the US would eventually decide that it simply wasn't worth it to fight him. 

What worked for Ho Chi Minh did NOT work for Hirohito because the US simply didn't give Hirohito enough time.  This strategy is ultimately dependent on the US not pouring in enough resources to win BEFORE US public support declines to problematic levels.  US leadership in 1945 understood this.  They planned the invasion for November, 1945 because that was as soon as they could do it and they KNEW that they were up against a clock. 

Two quick personal stories after something Truman said.  I'm sure if I spent some time googling I could find it but after the war Truman said something to the effect that he couldn't have faced the families of deceased American troops if he had been able to use the bomb and chosen not to.  Two of those potential causalities were friends of mine much later:
A guy named Ralph got me to volunteer for the American Legion Buckeye Boy's State.  You ( @847badgerfan ) will appreciate that the guy I work with now is from Wisconsin and attended Badger Boy's State years ago. Anyway, Ralph graduated from Medina High School on June 6, 1944.  That is D-Day, the date of the Normandy Invasion for anyone still reading who doesn't already know that.  Six months later he was in a repro-depot (replacement depot for green new troops ready to replace casualties) and got sent to the outskirts of the Battle of the Bulge as an artilleryman.  At the end of the war in Europe the US instituted a point system to determine who would get to go home first.  Guys got points for service time, time under fire, being married, having kids, etc.  My friend Ralph had been in combat for a few months but that was nothing compared to guys who had chased Rommel across North Africa, taken Sicily, landed at Anzio, landed at Normandy, then chased the Nazi's from Le Harve to the Rhine and beyond so he was not going home anytime soon.  He once told me that when the Japanese surrendered he was at a train station somewhere in Indiana when an "old" (probably younger than me now) guy drove by, saw his uniform, and said "Go home soldier, war's over".  Ralph was in Indiana because he had been shipped back to the US on the Queen Mary and ordered to report to some Army base in California for shipment to an undisclosed location in the Pacific.  He'd have been part of the invasion of Japan. 

Another guy I knew named Charlie was a year younger than Ralph.  He graduated from Medina High School in June, 1945.  By that time the Germans had already surrendered and, as a young and dumb guy, Charlie wanted to get into the war.  He joined the Navy because he figured they were the branch doing most of the fighting against Japan.  In later life Charlie said that he was a WWII veteran in name only because he was finishing up learning to be a tailgunner when Japan surrendered.  Charlie always said that the Bombs saved his life.  That was probably overly dramatic but it also was far from impossible.  Charlie ended up as a plankowner on the USS Midway.  In Naval parlance, "plankowners" are guys in the initial crew of a ship.  Midway was the first post-Essex class carrier and it was commissioned a few days after Japan surrendered. 

If Japan had not surrendered Ralph would have been hitting some beach on Kyushu and Charlie would have been flying over him in the back of a Torpedo Plane (Torpedo planes were used as level bombers when there were no more Japanese ships to use torpedos against).  If you were Truman, could you have faced Charlie's or Ralph's mom after they were killed and said "yeah, I could have prevented your son's death but I chose not to." 
« Last Edit: May 26, 2023, 12:49:18 PM by medinabuckeye1 »

 

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