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In the 2024-2025 BB thread we got into a discussion of UCONN's run over the last 25ish years.  It is a strange thing.  They have six NC's which is twice as many as the next best (UF, UNC, and Dook have three each).  They look great when looking at NC's but they are only pretty good when looking at everything else.  They have less NCAA Appearances, less S16's, etc.  Basically they have six incredible years and not much else.  Compare to MSU over the last 26 NCAA Tournaments:  The Spartans made the NCAA every year (8 more than UCONN) and they've been to 15 S16's (2nd behind Dook with 19 and half-again as many as UCONN).  MSU is also the leader in F4's over the past 26 NCAA Tournaments with 8 (Dook, UNC, and UCONN have seven each).  


How do you value MSU's consistent greatness relative to UCONN's sporadic excellence?  

For a football example, in the 33 seasons from 1969-2001 inclusive Ohio State was 4th best in overall winning percentage but won ZERO NC's.  Here is the top list:

• .841 Nebraska 339-62-5, 5 NC's, 1970, 1971, 1994, 1995, 1997
• .784 Michigan 304-81-8, 1 NC, 1997
• .772 Penn State 303-89-2, 2 NC's, 1982, 1986
• .748 Ohio State 287-94-8, - 0 - NC's
• .742 Oklahoma 284-96-8, 4 NC's, 1974, 1975, 1985, 2000
• .729 Florida State 282-103-5, 2 NC's, 1993, 1999
• .727 Alabama 287-107-3, 4 NC's, 1973, 1978, 1979, 1992
• .719 Tennessee 279-106-10, 1 NC, 1998
• .716 Notre Dame 273-107-5, 3 NC's, 1973, 1977, 1988
• .699 Brigham Young 283-121-3, 1 NC, 1984
• .692 Texas 266-117-5, 2 NC's, 1969, 1970
• .686 Florida 265-119-8, 1 NC, 1996
• .682 Miami, FL 260-121-0, 5 NC's, 1983, 1987, 1989, 1991, 2001
• .680 Southern California 260-119-13, 3 NC's, 1972, 1974, 1978
• .676 Georgia 257-121-8, 1 NC, 1980
• .674 Auburn 254-121-7, - 0 - NC's
• .666 Washington 253-126-3, 1 NC, 1991
• .651 Arizona State 244-130-4, - 0 - NC's
• .643 Texas A&M 248-137-3, - 0 - NC's
• .638 Arkansas 241-135-9, - 0 - NC's

Schools WITHOUT a NC in bold.  


Same question here.  How do you value Ohio State's consistent greatness relative to say Miami's sporadic excellence.  Ohio State is almost one game per year better overall but Miami has 5 NC's.  What about Ohio State compared to Washington?  The Buckeyes are a game per year better but Washington has an NC.  

Is it Championships uber alles?  Does even just one NC trump decades of being a contender in the mix?  If not, at what point is that line crossed?  

Hard to define the line, but for me there's definitely one somewhere.  By which I mean my answer differs based on extremes. 

In general, I'd rather my team win a bunch of games and have 0 NCs to show for it than have an overall poor record with some NC seasons sprinkled in.  
 
But you could go to further extremes, and that would change.  i.e., if I had to endure 4-8 every other season, but win the NC in the between seasons, I'd probably prefer that to a more consistent team with less-to-nothing to show for it.  That's not realistic, but I'm just giving an example of the thought process.  Where the actual line is, I'm not sure. 

I can tell you that the two separate 3-yr periods Les Miles had at LSU where the team went 34-6 over said 3-yr span was more enjoyable to me than, say, Orgeron's briefer tenure.  One of Miles' 3-yr periods produced an NC, the other did not.  Some would say that NC has warts and for the sake of argument let's say I accept that.  Orgeron had a bright, beautiful shooting star of a season which no reasonable person criticizes.....surrounded by a bunch of derpy seasons. 

I much preferred the Miles years I reference than the Orgeron years, and it would still be that way had 2007 not won an NC.  So wherever the line is, I know that 1 NC over, say, a five year period, is not worth more than consistency, for me.  Bump that up to 2 NCs over a 5 yr span (I guess, say, Alabama, Clemson, or UGA lately) and I'd probably be getting more willing to deal with crap seasons. 

However, since I consider NCs unlikely as a rule, given a blank slate in a vacuum, I'd opt for the 11-win team who never wins a title. 

I agree with the consensus here.  There is a line but exactly where it is is very difficult to pin down.  

If it were my choice for my school, our next 26 years could be either MSU's last 26 or UCONN's last 26, I'd take UCONN and the 6 NC's without hesitation.  Now if you pushed it to UCONN's last 26 years vs Dook's last 26 years, that is a tougher call:

• UCONN has more NC's 6 vs 3
• Each have 7 F4's
• Dook has more S16's, 19-10
• Dook has more NCAA Tournaments 25-18
• Dook also was just a lot better generally in terms of winning regular season games, league titles, high NCAA seeds, etc.  

That is still a tough call though because six NC's is almost one every five years.  Hell, even if it was four missed tournaments and one NC that is still tough to argue with.  

Closer to home, since the expansion to 64 in 1985 Purdue and Michigan are basically mirror images in BB.  Purdue has a LOT better overall record, more league titles, and more NCAA Appearances.  The two are about even in S16's then Michigan takes over with more E8's, more F4's, and an NC.  Who do you take there?  

If I'm a Purdue fan I'm proud of the consistency and regular season success but frustrated by the lack of deep Tournament runs. If I'm a Michigan fan (perish the thought), I'm proud of the Tournament success but frustrated by the lack of consistency and regular season success.  

I have to agree with Beta. There is such a discrepancy in titles I’ll live with UConn’s lows to get those highs.

For a football example, in the 33 seasons from 1969-2001 inclusive Ohio State was 4th best in overall winning percentage but won ZERO NC's.  Here is the top list:

• .841 Nebraska 339-62-5, 5 NC's, 1970, 1971, 1994, 1995, 1997
• .784 Michigan 304-81-8, 1 NC, 1997
• .772 Penn State 303-89-2, 2 NC's, 1982, 1986
• .748 Ohio State 287-94-8, - 0 - NC's
• .742 Oklahoma 284-96-8, 4 NC's, 1974, 1975, 1985, 2000
• .729 Florida State 282-103-5, 2 NC's, 1993, 1999

Is it Championships uber alles?  Does even just one NC trump decades of being a contender in the mix?  If not, at what point is that line crossed? 

I can say for Osborne, from 1973 to 1994 was a Derned long stretch w/o a title.  Fans hung their hat on the consistency and 9 win seasons, but it was tough. 

Imagine Alabama winning the NC in 09, then going 6-6, 2 more NCs in 11 and 12, then falling to 5-7.  It's silly.  Would never happen.

I do 100% agree that in the old world, this is silly and would never happen.

I wonder how much more often this sort of stuff will happen in the transfer portal / free agency / NIL era. 

Good point.  Washington might be a good case study, going forward.  Didn't win a NC, but was NC-quality, then had an all-time exodus of HC and players....IF they can jump back up (unlikely).....it might be a kind of success roller coaster, but I'm not sure anyone would seek that out.  Alas, they may not have the choice.

I think Michigan will do it.  They went from national champion, to 7-5, and seem primed to jump back to a 10 win team.

I think you will see it more often in that direction than in the other, where a national title contender whiffs in a couple key places in the portal, and falls off.  I don't think you'll see the opposite where a team jumps from bad to national title contender.  What we saw from Indiana this year, is probably about the ceiling on that