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Topic: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?

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Cincydawg

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Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
« Reply #112 on: July 11, 2024, 04:58:11 PM »
Maybe it’s not clear how to fix it.  

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
« Reply #113 on: July 11, 2024, 05:08:50 PM »
I'd think @medinabuckeye1 might say wages for the middle and lower classes plateaued because of immigration. I'd think you might say that they've plateaued due to capitalist greed.


Well, employing illegal immigrants is....illegal, so it's still a case of capitalist greed if that's the bigger issue.  Paying those immigrants less = more money for the employers.  Rinse.  Repeat.  Shrug.  Win.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

medinabuckeye1

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Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
« Reply #114 on: July 11, 2024, 05:17:07 PM »
The top 2 lines employ the bottom 3 lines.  If employer wages have leapt and the employee wages are stagnant, it's a pretty easy "why."

The employers pay as little as possible to get 'enough' output for steady growth and then keep all the increases.
You can find the stats that show CEO income to employee income ratios exploding over the same time period. 

It's unethical.  We all know it.  But the winners shrug and the losers continue to live on the razor's edge of survival.
This is a lot like blaming corporate greed for inflation.  Ok, were corporations NOT greedy for the past 35 years of low inflation.  

Similarly here, were CEO's NOT greedy and unethical in the 1960's when bottom Quintile earnings were closer to the others?  

Also, if CEO's (who are top 5% not top two Quintiles) can just unilaterally pay whatever they want to their employees then why do they bother to pay decent and increasing-over-time wages to their higher-level employees?  

The "corporate greed is the culprit" argument fails because you can't realistically argue that Carnegie/Rockefeller were LESS greedy than today's CEO's.  

Bottom Quintile earnings did not fall because CEO's suddenly woke up in the mid-60's one morning and said "hey, lets pay less to our low-end employees and keep more money for ourselves".  

CEO's have always been incentivized to pay as little as possible to get the output.  The difference isn't changing Corporate Greed.  By the way, most of those CEO's and Billionaires are Democrats so I *COULD* just say ok, your fault.  

Wages are a price for labor and like any other price they are set in the market based on supply and demand:
  • Increase the supply and (all else being equal), price drops.  
  • Decrease the supply and (all else being equal), price rises.  
  • Increase the demand and (all else being equal), price rises.  
  • Decrease the demand and (all else being equal), price drops.  

Our Bottom Quintile and 2nd Quintile earners are primarily suffering from two compounding factors:
  • Automation and computerization have caused a downward pressure on the demand for unskilled/low-skilled labor.  Decreases in demand cause decreases in price.  
  • America's Immigration Restrictionism of roughly 1920's to 1965 ended with the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965.  That combined with a growing refusal to make even minimal efforts to enforce the border and keep out illegals has flooded the market with vast sums of unskilled and low-skilled laborers.  


OrangeAfroMan

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Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
« Reply #115 on: July 11, 2024, 05:29:25 PM »
This is a lot like blaming corporate greed for inflation.  Ok, were corporations NOT greedy for the past 35 years of low inflation. Their relative wealth has grown with the income disparity. 

Similarly here, were CEO's NOT greedy and unethical in the 1960's when bottom Quintile earnings were closer to the others? Yes, but their profits weren't as great, so the disparity was less.

Also, if CEO's (who are top 5% not top two Quintiles) can just unilaterally pay whatever they want to their employees then why do they bother to pay decent and increasing-over-time wages to their higher-level employees? Good question.  I suspect it's to delineate a line between white collar and blue collar.  In-group and out-group.

The "corporate greed is the culprit" argument fails because you can't realistically argue that Carnegie/Rockefeller were LESS greedy than today's CEO's. You're citing the guys monopoly laws were practically invented for?

Bottom Quintile earnings did not fall because CEO's suddenly woke up in the mid-60's one morning and said "hey, lets pay less to our low-end employees and keep more money for ourselves". Idk why you threw this in.

CEO's have always been incentivized to pay as little as possible to get the output.  The difference isn't changing Corporate Greed.  By the way, most of those CEO's and Billionaires are Democrats so I *COULD* just say ok, your fault. I'm not a Dem, as I've said countless times on here.  I don't give a shit what party a CEO subscribes to.  It's completely irrelevant. 

Wages are a price for labor and like any other price they are set in the market based on supply and demand:
  • Increase the supply and (all else being equal), price drops. 
  • Decrease the supply and (all else being equal), price rises. 
  • Increase the demand and (all else being equal), price rises. 
  • Decrease the demand and (all else being equal), price drops. Great, this is why we're looking at aggregate data over decades.

Our Bottom Quintile and 2nd Quintile earners are primarily suffering from two compounding factors:
  • Automation and computerization have caused a downward pressure on the demand for unskilled/low-skilled labor.  Decreases in demand cause decreases in price. 
  • America's Immigration Restrictionism of roughly 1920's to 1965 ended with the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965.  That combined with a growing refusal to make even minimal efforts to enforce the border and keep out illegals has flooded the market with vast sums of unskilled and low-skilled laborers.  Don't illegally hire people just to make an extra buck.


Unskilled/low-skilled labor isn't value, and thus, isn't paid even decently.  There's no incentive to pay it decently because unskilled laborers don't have any power.

And there is always an excess of unskilled/low-skilled workers.  Most people don't have a 4-year degree.  Illegal immigrants flooded an already flooded market.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
« Reply #116 on: July 11, 2024, 05:30:27 PM »
The employers pay as little as possible to get 'enough' output for steady growth and then keep all the increases.
Employers don't set wages. The employers pay wages that are defined not by the employers, but by the supply/demand balance in the market for the workers that can do the job. 

If lots of people can do a job (such as low-skill labor), the supply exceeds the demand and drives down wages. If few people can do a job (like highly technical or complicated things like, for example, neurosurgery), the demand exceeds the supply and drives up wages. 

You're right, of course, that the employers want to pay as little as they can. To pay more than they have to would be, well, stupid. But how low they can get away with is dependent on market rates. 

Different businesses also do different things within that... For example even in a low-skill job like fast food, In & Out here locally is known for paying wages above and beyond what is typical for fast food joints. They make that choice because of what they get for it--access to higher quality workers than their competition, lower turnover rates, and better employee morale. 

You may view labor through the lens of "exploiters vs exploited", but as with everything, it's always a lot more complicated than you think.

MaximumSam

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Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
« Reply #117 on: July 11, 2024, 05:33:34 PM »
Unskilled/low-skilled labor isn't value, and thus, isn't paid even decently.  There's no incentive to pay it decently because unskilled laborers don't have any power.

And there is always an excess of unskilled/low-skilled workers.  Most people don't have a 4-year degree.  Illegal immigrants flooded an already flooded market.
I continue to state that "unskilled/low-skilled" workers is a rough category with little meaning.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
« Reply #118 on: July 11, 2024, 05:36:08 PM »

Our Bottom Quintile and 2nd Quintile earners are primarily suffering from two compounding factors:
  • Automation and computerization have caused a downward pressure on the demand for unskilled/low-skilled labor.  Decreases in demand cause decreases in price. 
  • America's Immigration Restrictionism of roughly 1920's to 1965 ended with the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965.  That combined with a growing refusal to make even minimal efforts to enforce the border and keep out illegals has flooded the market with vast sums of unskilled and low-skilled laborers. 
Also globalization. Low-skill workers aren't just competing with other low-skill Americans and low-skill immigrants (legal or not). They're competing with low-skill workers in foreign countries where the prevailing wages are a fraction of what they are here. 

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
« Reply #119 on: July 11, 2024, 05:37:55 PM »
Employers don't set wages. The employers pay wages that are defined not by the employers, but by the supply/demand balance in the market for the workers that can do the job.

If lots of people can do a job (such as low-skill labor), the supply exceeds the demand and drives down wages. If few people can do a job (like highly technical or complicated things like, for example, neurosurgery), the demand exceeds the supply and drives up wages.

You're right, of course, that the employers want to pay as little as they can. To pay more than they have to would be, well, stupid. But how low they can get away with is dependent on market rates.

Different businesses also do different things within that... For example even in a low-skill job like fast food, In & Out here locally is known for paying wages above and beyond what is typical for fast food joints. They make that choice because of what they get for it--access to higher quality workers than their competition, lower turnover rates, and better employee morale.

You may view labor through the lens of "exploiters vs exploited", but as with everything, it's always a lot more complicated than you think.
Agreed, but the corporations desire and gain influence with politicians, other stakeholders, and each other in order to influence the ebbs and flows of their industries.  They move mountains to limit risk and any increases to labor costs (and other costs, obviously).

With your post - if it accompanied a chart in which every line had gradual increase/uptick, that'd be great.  Ethical.  Fair.  
But it's not.  And it's not.  And it's not.  

"Life's not fair," no shit, Fro. 
Well, it could be much more fair and the billionaires would still be billionaires, the millionaires would still be millionaires, and the poor would still be poor.  
But the fewer people we have at the ends of the income bell curve, the better.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
« Reply #120 on: July 11, 2024, 05:39:50 PM »
Also globalization. Low-skill workers aren't just competing with other low-skill Americans and low-skill immigrants (legal or not). They're competing with low-skill workers in foreign countries where the prevailing wages are a fraction of what they are here.
Yeah, this is fucked up, too.  I don't like the idea of banning it, of course, but as long as it's allowed, what can you do?
Illegal immigrants flooded a global flood. Thanks, hadn't thought of that.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
« Reply #121 on: July 11, 2024, 05:41:54 PM »
I continue to state that "unskilled/low-skilled" workers is a rough category with little meaning.
For me, it's any job a person off the street could do with a few minutes/hours/days of apprenticeship or a 4-hour training video.  Picking cabbage.  Flipping burgers.  Hammering nails.  Cleaning carpets.  Etc.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

utee94

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Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
« Reply #122 on: July 11, 2024, 05:43:25 PM »
Using the lowest cost manufacturing regardless of geography doesn't have all the benefits once imagined, and it has far more risks than ever imagined.  Consequently there are numerous American companies either moving manufacturing back to the USA, or at least much closer.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
« Reply #123 on: July 11, 2024, 05:48:52 PM »
As long as we can keep Indian and Filipino call centers busy, we've done our job.

The local Rally's drive-thru fast-food place has had an AI robot taking orders within the past year.  So that's fun.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
« Reply #124 on: July 11, 2024, 05:58:11 PM »
Agreed, but the corporations desire and gain influence with politicians, other stakeholders, and each other in order to influence the ebbs and flows of their industries.  They move mountains to limit risk and any increases to labor costs (and other costs, obviously).

With your post - if it accompanied a chart in which every line had gradual increase/uptick, that'd be great.  Ethical.  Fair. 
But it's not.  And it's not.  And it's not. 

"Life's not fair," no shit, Fro.
Well, it could be much more fair and the billionaires would still be billionaires, the millionaires would still be millionaires, and the poor would still be poor. 
But the fewer people we have at the ends of the income bell curve, the better. 
That was the point of the graph I made which showed income distribution when government transfers and taxes are added in. You may claim that "real wages" have been stagnant in the lower quintiles for 40+ years, but the poor have actually made real gains over those years. What you're advocating for is actually happening. 

The truth is that capitalism / the free market is the greatest prosperity engine that humanity has ever seen. It's the goose laying golden eggs. It's not perfect. It doesn't account for everyone. So use capitalism to generate the wealth and government to help those who are left behind. DON'T completely screw up the system and kill the goose by destroying all incentives that make capitalism work. 

It's like our health care system. It's got all the bad parts of capitalism and all the bad parts of socialism. Most of Europe has all the bad parts of socialism, and none of the good parts of capitalism. You know who got it right? The Swiss. Their system has the good parts of capitalism and the good parts of socialism. I may ideologically be a libertarian, but I'm also an engineer. I recognize when someone has designed something that works. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
« Reply #125 on: July 11, 2024, 05:58:19 PM »
Well, employing illegal immigrants is....illegal, so it's still a case of capitalist greed if that's the bigger issue.  Paying those immigrants less = more money for the employers.  Rinse.  Repeat.  Shrug.  Win.
Eh, fine but there has also been substantially no effort to actually enforce the law.  E-verify has been repeatedly spiked by the R-leaning Cheap Labor Lobby and the D-leaning More D's lobby. 

 

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