header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: How do you know what you think you know?

 (Read 6643 times)

utee94

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 22169
  • Liked:
Re: How do you know what you think you know?
« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2025, 11:57:37 AM »
I have a notion that many things "in Nature" are beyond the understandings of even the smartest humans. 
That could certainly be true.  

MikeDeTiger

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 4317
  • Liked:
Re: How do you know what you think you know?
« Reply #71 on: March 06, 2025, 01:29:05 PM »
Yeah, the IMHO this gets to one of the core conflicts of religion, as it relates to the concept of perfect omniscience/omnipotence/omnibenevolence of a supreme being and humanity's free will. God created the universe with perfect knowledge, therefore God is responsible for everyone's actions because God knew what they would be long before creating us. Therefore God punishing anyone for said actions is immoral and cruel, because he's subjecting beings he created to punishment for what they had no choice in doing. Therefore our God is not a benevolent God; we have an asshole God. However, if humans DO have free will, that means God doesn't know what we will choose, because if God knows we have no ability to choose differently and prove God wrong. Therefore God is not omniscient [and therefore not perfect].

Kudos to you for even thinking that hard about it.  Most people don't ever do that much.  

You're close, but you're conflating foreknowledge and causation.  It could be argued that the two things necessarily go together, but it's crucial to distinguish them as two separate things.  

This grappling with reconciling God's sovereignty and foreknowledge with human free will is a rich, fascinating, old, and ongoing discussion.  It's a key component of one of the major areas of Christian theology called soteriology.  

The main competitors in the Protestant world have been Calvinism and Arminianism, both of which seek to reconcile the potential contradiction of divine sovereignty and foreknowledge with free will.  I wouldn't say they don't succeed, but.....they don't succeed, imo.  Both systems leave themselves open to criticisms of either contradiction, or unsatisfactory explanations.  Calvinism ultimately doesn't leave room for libertarian free will, and its more scholarly proponents admit that, but they think (erroneously, imo) that their compatibilist version of free will is fine (it isn't).  Arminianism also tries to solve your objection above, but ultimately undermines God's sovereignty, or, as you might say, the combination of attributes of omniscience and omnipotence.  So the short version of the critiques is that while both views try to resolve the tension, Calvinism ultimately shortchanges free will and Arminianism ultimately shortchanges attributes Christians want to assign to God.  

One of the less common alternatives which has recently come back into fashion somewhat, is Molinism, and I think it withstands every objection with flying colors.  It solves the apparent contradiction between divine sovereignty and human free will and doesn't contradict any historic Christian notions about the two.  It's not rocket science, but it's not simple either, and it deserves more than a Google search and some internet summaries.  (Actually, they all do.)  If someone told me "I just looked it up and it's crap" or "I just looked it up and it's sound," my response would be "You know nothing."

Roman Catholocism relies heavily on Thomism, which is an entire systematic hodge-podge of Aristotelian meta-physics and is kind of its own thing.  It's also a vast, wide-ranging system of belief that encapsulates way more than just soteriology, so a lot of it doesn't even apply here.  It's not bad but I'm ultimately unsatisfied with it alone as an answer to the problem you've posed.  IMO, Molinism with a healthy dose of Thomism mixed in is quite compelling.  

Orthodox branches.....I don't even know what they're thinking.  Literally.  I'm not overly familiar with their theology, and it can be very bizarre to my western mind.  They ain't western, and things that appear untenable as contradictions to me may be just fine in their way of looking at things.  

If you wanted to know more about any of that, I'm happy to talk about it, but I admit that it's lengthy and it would be hard to do any of the views justice here.  Despite my fast typing, I do have limits.  For now, suffice it to say that I think Molinism is a good solution to the problem you outlined.  I can't say that the matter is settled, because so many people don't think Molinism is sound for one reason or another.  For me, I've found people's objections to reveal they don't actually understand it, or else they have definitions I find unreasonable.  The former can be overcome, the latter can't, necessarily, so I don't drop the mic and act like it's Game Over.  This is just to say, the quagmire you outlined is a real one, that I think it has a good solution, and that other solutions I've found to be lacking.  

bayareabadger

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 9341
  • Liked:
Re: How do you know what you think you know?
« Reply #72 on: March 06, 2025, 01:38:06 PM »
I know I’m right, so I’m set. 

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 82494
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: How do you know what you think you know?
« Reply #73 on: March 06, 2025, 01:39:25 PM »
Somewhere I saw an interesting discussion about some quantum event where some entity is either going to go A or B, with equal probability.  In one instant, it will be, say, "A".  What decides that?  Anything?  An electron confronts two slits and can pass through either Slit A or Slit B.  How does it decide?

Of course, it doesn't, apparently, it goes through both, because it's not really a particle.

A "single electron double slit experiment" is a quantum physics experiment where a single electron is fired at a barrier with two slits, demonstrating that even though an electron is considered a particle, it can exhibit wave-like behavior by creating an interference pattern on a detector screen, suggesting that the electron is in a superposition state and "passes through both slits at once" until observed; this highlights the wave-particle duality of quantum particles like electrons. 






MikeDeTiger

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 4317
  • Liked:
Re: How do you know what you think you know?
« Reply #74 on: March 06, 2025, 01:54:55 PM »
I would tell my physics joke, but I think I've already told it here.  

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 45432
  • Liked:
Re: How do you know what you think you know?
« Reply #75 on: March 06, 2025, 01:56:26 PM »
Nubbz has a thread for that
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 14495
  • Liked:
Re: How do you know what you think you know?
« Reply #76 on: March 06, 2025, 01:57:50 PM »
Kudos to you for even thinking that hard about it.  Most people don't ever do that much. 

You're close, but you're conflating foreknowledge and causation.  It could be argued that the two things necessarily go together, but it's crucial to distinguish them as two separate things. 

This grappling with reconciling God's sovereignty and foreknowledge with human free will is a rich, fascinating, old, and ongoing discussion.  It's a key component of one of the major areas of Christian theology called soteriology. 

The main competitors in the Protestant world have been Calvinism and Arminianism, both of which seek to reconcile the potential contradiction of divine sovereignty and foreknowledge with free will.  I wouldn't say they don't succeed, but.....they don't succeed, imo.  Both systems leave themselves open to criticisms of either contradiction, or unsatisfactory explanations.  Calvinism ultimately doesn't leave room for libertarian free will, and its more scholarly proponents admit that, but they think (erroneously, imo) that their compatibilist version of free will is fine (it isn't).  Arminianism also tries to solve your objection above, but ultimately undermines God's sovereignty, or, as you might say, the combination of attributes of omniscience and omnipotence.  So the short version of the critiques is that while both views try to resolve the tension, Calvinism ultimately shortchanges free will and Arminianism ultimately shortchanges attributes Christians want to assign to God. 

One of the less common alternatives which has recently come back into fashion somewhat, is Molinism, and I think it withstands every objection with flying colors.  It solves the apparent contradiction between divine sovereignty and human free will and doesn't contradict any historic Christian notions about the two.  It's not rocket science, but it's not simple either, and it deserves more than a Google search and some internet summaries.  (Actually, they all do.)  If someone told me "I just looked it up and it's crap" or "I just looked it up and it's sound," my response would be "You know nothing."

Roman Catholocism relies heavily on Thomism, which is an entire systematic hodge-podge of Aristotelian meta-physics and is kind of its own thing.  It's also a vast, wide-ranging system of belief that encapsulates way more than just soteriology, so a lot of it doesn't even apply here.  It's not bad but I'm ultimately unsatisfied with it alone as an answer to the problem you've posed.  IMO, Molinism with a healthy dose of Thomism mixed in is quite compelling. 

Orthodox branches.....I don't even know what they're thinking.  Literally.  I'm not overly familiar with their theology, and it can be very bizarre to my western mind.  They ain't western, and things that appear untenable as contradictions to me may be just fine in their way of looking at things. 

If you wanted to know more about any of that, I'm happy to talk about it, but I admit that it's lengthy and it would be hard to do any of the views justice here.  Despite my fast typing, I do have limits.  For now, suffice it to say that I think Molinism is a good solution to the problem you outlined.  I can't say that the matter is settled, because so many people don't think Molinism is sound for one reason or another.  For me, I've found people's objections to reveal they don't actually understand it, or else they have definitions I find unreasonable.  The former can be overcome, the latter can't, necessarily, so I don't drop the mic and act like it's Game Over.  This is just to say, the quagmire you outlined is a real one, that I think it has a good solution, and that other solutions I've found to be lacking. 
Thanks for the detailed response. I'd be happy to discuss Molinism over a beer (or, it sounds like, quite a few beers :singing: ) at some point should the opportunity ever arise. Likewise, if you are aware of any good links or even books on it, I might just put it on my reading list. I don't necessarily want to go TOO deep, but as you can tell I'm interested in the philosophical aspects of this. 

One of the difficulties between foreknowledge and causation as it relates to free will is that God, theoretically, could have created a universe in many different ways. He set the initial conditions and could have run his computer "God-simulation" program to identify all the different ways that the universe could have developed. So even if it's true that there is some way to square the circle of his foreknowledge such that I have the free will not to believe in his existence, my contention would be the HE also had the ability to create a universe in which I never existed. Would it not be cruel to create a universe in which I'd freely not believe in him and punish me for it, if he could have created a universe in which I never existed and never have to punish me at all? 

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 14495
  • Liked:
Re: How do you know what you think you know?
« Reply #77 on: March 06, 2025, 01:59:06 PM »
I would tell my physics joke, but I think I've already told it here. 
Heisenberg gets pulled over?

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 82494
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: How do you know what you think you know?
« Reply #78 on: March 06, 2025, 02:00:18 PM »
My own vague notions is that a Supreme Being and Creator would not be bounded by Time.  They would exist something like we would seem to a "Flatlander" living in 2-D space.  So, this being would have access to our future and our past at will, as easily as we can go up or down.

Riffraft

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 1470
  • Liked:
Re: How do you know what you think you know?
« Reply #79 on: March 06, 2025, 04:44:14 PM »
I think the problem is we are defining word and God by human understanding.  I am a presuppositionalist.  By presuppositional God is good and as such by definition anything God does is good.  By presupposition God is benvolent so anything God does is benevolent by definition.  The problem is we are not God, so we an not presuppose that anything God has done, we can also do because it was good.  We are not God and therefore do not have the preoragtive.  Personally I believe that Micah 6:8 establishes as basis for us to live.  Paraphrased, He has shown us what is good, seek justice, love mercy walk humbly.  I actually have it tattooed on my arm.

BTW I love Flatlands.  I think it does a good job of giving an explanation of the supernatural and showing that it could be just natural, but we cannot see beyond our own 3 dimensions. 

MikeDeTiger

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 4317
  • Liked:
Re: How do you know what you think you know?
« Reply #80 on: March 06, 2025, 04:57:00 PM »
Thanks for the detailed response. I'd be happy to discuss Molinism over a beer (or, it sounds like, quite a few beers :singing: ) at some point should the opportunity ever arise. Likewise, if you are aware of any good links or even books on it, I might just put it on my reading list. I don't necessarily want to go TOO deep, but as you can tell I'm interested in the philosophical aspects of this.

One of the difficulties between foreknowledge and causation as it relates to free will is that God, theoretically, could have created a universe in many different ways. He set the initial conditions and could have run his computer "God-simulation" program to identify all the different ways that the universe could have developed. So even if it's true that there is some way to square the circle of his foreknowledge such that I have the free will not to believe in his existence, my contention would be the HE also had the ability to create a universe in which I never existed. Would it not be cruel to create a universe in which I'd freely not believe in him and punish me for it, if he could have created a universe in which I never existed and never have to punish me at all?


I recently got a pretty short book on Molinism by a philosopher who's written many books I own.  He's brilliant and clear in his writing, so I expect it's good, but I won't recommend it just yet because I still haven't read it.  There is a lecture on YouTube that's about an hour, of him explaining the position which is a pretty good run-down.  I can't look for it at work but I'll check later and send you the link if I can still find it. 

With the second paragraph, you've butted up against the broader subject of God's moral perfection.  Man, there's so much there.....let me see how much nothing I can do while I pretend to work.  Again, good job on the question in the first place.  I don't think most people ever think that hard about it.

The most basic element of this discussion would be the proposition that God is what he is, not what we think he is or what we want him to be.  You'd think that'd be uncontroversial but it's amazing how much that idea is not adhered to and trips up opinions.  So many objections against God are effectively straw men that people erect based on assigning him incorrect or inadequate qualities compared to his actual nature, knock down said straw men, and then say "Look, your God doesn't pass this test as expected."  When the reality is, no, we don't get to make stuff up willy-nilly about the Christian God and charge him with no evidence when he fails to meet an arbitrary standard.  Christianity makes a basic set of claims about God which I won't detail here, and which, according our own belief system, we did not make up but rather these are attributes which God himself revealed in one way or another.  So to start with, we have to consider God on his terms, not ours. 

I mention this because one proposed answer to what you're talking about is to first consider the definition of omnipotence.  Christian belief has historically held that none of God's characteristics can violate any other of his characteristics.  In fact, most schools of thought have held to the idea of Divine Simplicity--of which there are many versions--which is just the idea that God is not made up of parts, and so his characteristics are not separable in some ways (there is definite variation in how far to take that idea, and it gets so philosophically complex that my head explodes....I'm learning, but I'm not all the way there yet with that one).  All this means God's omnipotence can't be divorced from other characteristics, one of which is the idea that logic and reason are grounded ontologically in his nature.  So when we say God is omnipotent, that actually has a limitation of only being able to do what is logically possible.  i.e., can God make a square circle?  No.  Can he make a married bachelor?  No.  If someone wanted to say God should be able to do those things or else it's not omnipotence, fine, but if he can do the logically impossible, then he can both exist and not exist, or do any horrible thing imaginable no matter what and yet also be perfectly moral.  Because, once logic goes.....why not? 

See Alvin Plantinga's work (just to name one prominent philosopher) which expounds that notion and critiques the idea God could make any world.  Rather, his omnipotence allows him to make any world that's logically possible. 

But wait, there's also his moral perfection.  God is "bound," in a sense, to act only according to his nature.  I think the idea here is anything else would be a logical contradiction.  (And if you really want your head to explode, look into the literature on whether or not God actually has free will.)  But at least potentially, God is obligated by his own nature to create the best possible world which he logically could create.  On the surface, that's a harrowing idea.  This?  This place?  Out of the gazillions of worlds he could create, he picked this one?  With all the pain, suffering, misery, spite, war, hunger, and flat-out evil?  We're supposed to believe this is the best he could do? 

Now we've wandered off into the objection for the existence of God due to the problem of evil and suffering, which I won't get into too deeply here, but as briefly as I can, I'll say philosophers have broadly divided it into two categories:  The logical problem of suffering, and the probabilistic problem of suffering.  The answer to the former is actually relatively simple and has widespread agreement amongst philosophers that it fails to disprove God's existence.  The reason being that they recognize that if there is even any possibility that God could have morally sufficient reasons for allowing the evil and suffering that he does, then the objection fails.  Does he have morally sufficient reasons?  Well, that's irrelevant, as long as it's even possible.  And the burden of proof placed on the detractor to show that God could not have morally sufficient reasons for allowing this much evil and suffering is obviously so high than it cannot be met.  That is, as I say, widely recognized, and uncontroversial.  The latter I won't get into because it doesn't exactly apply to your question.  I'll only mention quickly that due to the widely agreed-upon recognition of the failure of the logical problem of suffering, most atheist philosophers retreat to some version of the probabilistic version (and I'll note that, for example, when OAM voices his objections to the idea of God regarding evil/suffering/crap, he's giving various examples of the probabilistic problem of suffering). 

The importance of recognizing how the logical problem of evil and suffering fails is in the understanding that God could have morally sufficient reasons for having created this world.  We don't have the perfect moral scales, by which I mean, for example, what's more "good".....helping an old lady across the street, or helping a kid who fell down on the sidewalk and scraped his knee?  I'm sure that's not a good example, but hopefully you get what I'm saying.  Suppose you can only do one of those things.  Which is "better?"  Heck if I know.  The greatest amount of good is hard to know even when we clearly understand limited alternatives.  Imagine the actual world, with quintillions of decisions having been made, producing outcomes, for however long we've been here.  Then add on top of that, we don't know the counterfactuals.  We don't know what would happen in the overall arc of history if people chose differently than they did.  (This is where Molinism comes in, which posits the idea of God's "Middle Knowledge" as part of his omniscience.) 

At this point, if you're still with me, you might be saying "Ok, but you haven't proven any of that."  True, I haven't, and I haven't intended to.  I went through all that to hopefully show there is coherence to the idea that God may in fact produce the best possible world, and that we are in no position to say this isn't it.  Love, for example, has often been held up as one of the greatest goods, if not the greatest.  How many loving acts does it take to justify the amount of crap in the world?  Well, I'd argue that to know that, we'd have to understand the moral scales, which we don't.  I don't know how much suffering is worth the good the history of the world has seen.  What I do know is that it's at least plausible that God wants the best possible world, and that he created it. 

How does that answer your question about God creating people he knows will reject him?  Well, assuming there's no incoherence between his sovereignty and our free will (Molinism gets my vote, but there are other options), then if people freely reject him, he's not morally culpable for whatever consequences they incur.  And while he may foreknow their free choice, he can be justified in creating them anyway if their free choices in the world contribute to the greatest amount of possible good.  Which is to say, to answer your question directly about why not create a world where an unbeliever is never born?  Because it's not just about them.  Their actions and presence in the world may bring about circumstances and conditions that cause the overall arc of history of free creatures to be the best it could be.  They had free will.  They used it.  God had a world to bring about.  He used them. 

Is that how it is?  I don't know.  I suspect it's something like that.  But I'd note this all comes strictly from philosophy, and is not taught in any texts Christians consider sacred or divinely inspired.  The important thing there is, it doesn't contradict those writings either. 

This was hella-long and I don't know if I do a good job of staying on topic when I do this.  It's hard to type that much and not lose sight of the original question I'm trying to answer.  And, if on a first consideration, you looked at it and said "that sounds like a buncha bullshit," I confess I wouldn't blame you.  I'm not sure what it would look like to me if I weren't a Christian.  And even for me, the first time I realized that maybe this world is actually the one God wanted, it just about made me turn white and faint.  I think it did not square with what I thought about God, but back then, I confess I knew so very little about theology, or had read any great philosophers or theologians, which is back to my first point.  I was still trying to fit things into what I thought about God, not looking for what he actually is and going from there.  I also realize it may strike you as immoral.  I think.....I get that impulse....even if I ultimately don't agree with it.  It certainly doesn't feel good to say God wanted this exact world, or that he created people he knew would reject him.  But two things:  1)  this is just one solution to the question you asked.  There are others.  This just happens to be the solution that makes the most sense out of the nature of God as I understand it.  2)  The distinction to remember, even if it doesn't convince you, is that it's not that God wanted the amount of crap we have or people to not believe in him, per se, it's that the crap and the people were necessary to bring about the best possible world.....and that a world where free creatures do good in ways we can't measure, and then go on to live in an eternity of undefiled good with him and each other, is totally worth it, if we could just see the infinite picture with our finite minds. 


« Last Edit: March 06, 2025, 05:11:24 PM by MikeDeTiger »

MikeDeTiger

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 4317
  • Liked:
Re: How do you know what you think you know?
« Reply #81 on: March 06, 2025, 04:58:45 PM »
That got MedinaBuckeye-long.

Medina ain't got nothing on me :72:

MikeDeTiger

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 4317
  • Liked:
Re: How do you know what you think you know?
« Reply #82 on: March 06, 2025, 04:59:16 PM »
Heisenberg gets pulled over?

Heisenberg and Schroedinger

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 14495
  • Liked:
Re: How do you know what you think you know?
« Reply #83 on: March 06, 2025, 06:32:47 PM »
@Riffraft @MikeDeTiger thanks for the response. And Mike, if you find that YT video, let me know. 

To me, and I'm not trying to sound like OAM here... It just brings up a lot of questions...

So we're not supposed to understand God. Yet, it's claimed he made man in his image. So we should have at least SOME natural inkling of his nature, right? But hey, he's supernatural. I can definitely accept that our conception of his nature is... Limited. I will say that looking at humanity, I sure as shit see a lot more of the reflection of the Old Testament angry spiteful god than the love & kumbaya of Jesus...

So then we should base our limited understanding of him on the nature of what he's revealed to us. And that, of course, is the Christian god only. Because the Greek & Roman gods were just stories. And the Zoroastrian god, well, I guess I don't know much. And the Jewish god and the Christian god and the Muslim god are all supposedly the same one, but he seemed to change his nature of what he did and didn't reveal to us across time. And then of course there's the Buddha, and all of the Hindu gods... And let's not bring up the Mormons, who know Jesus was in New York after the resurrection where the golden plates were found by Joseph Smith. It's confusing why we should ONLY trust the Christian god, and believe that everything there in the Bible is what He revealed to us. 

The idea that we can't understand the parts of God that are problematic to human morality/ethics but yet we have to follow one book's account of the things we do know about him (but not the various other books/accounts that also claim to be the truth) is, well, difficult. 

I've kinda come to the opposite conclusion. That we invented God in our own image, as a way to explain all the difficult and scary things that the world offers us that we don't understand, and as a way to give us comfort from the existential despair that is inherent in facing our own mortality. And we invented organized religion as a shared community in which we can cement social values (and social control) for a more harmonious society. Is that cynical? Yes. I'm a cynic.

---------------

But on a personal level is where it gets me. The Bible says that we are saved ONLY through faith. Now, I'm an unbeliever and don't have that. Yet, at the same time, I try to sincerely be kind and loving. I try to behave in the most ethical way that I can. I pride myself on trying to do the right thing not because I have to, but because it's the right thing. Am I perfect? Of course not. Nobody is. But IMHO I act more ethically than a lot of people who consider themselves Christians. What Jesus preached is pretty damn remarkable, and I feel like my principles are actually pretty similar to what he prescribed. Yet the Bible tells me I'm going to burn in hell for eternity because I haven't accepted Jesus as my savior. 

The idea that a God will punish me for eternity, despite trying to live up to as many of the principles of Jesus as I can, just because I rationally can't see direct evidence of his existence that will make me a believer? Again, that doesn't sound like a God I want to believe in...

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.