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Topic: HFA in general and this season

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medinabuckeye1

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Re: HFA in general and this season
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2021, 08:47:57 PM »
I compiled it for all league teams.  Anytime someone says HFA doesn't matter ask them why every single team did better at home in this set:


Method:
This isn't exactly all conference games.  It only includes home and road games so CG's and bowls (for example tOSU and PSU played a bowl game during the timeframe) are excluded as are neutral site games such as a game that tOSU had against Northwestern in Cleveland.  The timeframe is the 50 years from 1970-2019 and includes all teams in the league for at least half of that time so PSU is included (including OOC games against them prior to their joining) but UNL, UMD, and RU are NOT included.  

Minnesota and Indiana have the biggest HFA in the league which is funny because I don't think anybody thinks of either of those as particularly scary places to play.  One of the major reasons that they are #1 and #2 is because the HFA in games between the two of them is off the charts:

  • From 1970-2019 IU dominated 15-3 in games against Minnesota in Bloomington .833
  • From 1970-2019 MN dominated 15-4 in games against Indiana in Minneapolis .789


betarhoalphadelta

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Re: HFA in general and this season
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2021, 09:54:24 AM »
Ok.

Now do basketball :57:

medinabuckeye1

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Re: HFA in general and this season
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2021, 12:04:01 PM »

medinabuckeye1

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Re: HFA in general and this season
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2021, 04:55:35 PM »
So the data-set I used is the 11 teams that made up the Big11Ten and I looked at the HFA in each of the match-ups among those 11 teams.  That works out to 55 different matchups (10+9+8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1).  Here they are ranked by what I am calling "HFA" which is mathematically the difference between the winning percentage when playing that opponent at home and the winning percentage when playing that opponent on the road.  

Forty-five show an advantage for the home team ranging from the ridiculous +0.623 advantage for the home team in games between Minnesota and Indiana to a barely discernable +0.004 advantage for the home team in games between Ohio State and Northwestern.  The other 10 show a disadvantage for the home team ranging from a barely discernable -0.018 disadvantage in games between Northwestern and Minnesota to a substantial -0.214 disadvantage for the home team in games between Penn State and Iowa.  

Here is the list:



medinabuckeye1

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Re: HFA in general and this season
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2021, 05:09:26 PM »
@betarhoalphadelta , FWIW your team's HFA against Ohio State and Michigan from 1970-2019 is flat our astounding.  

At home your Boilermakers are:

  • 7-11 against Ohio State, .389 and
  • 6-14 against Michigan, .300
  • 13-25 against the two major helmets, ,342
Considering the opposition, that is REALLY good.  That is three out of ten against Michigan and nearly two out of five against Ohio State.  

On the road, not so much:
  • 1-14 against Ohio State, .067
  • 1-17 against Michigan, .056
  • 2-31 against the two major helmets, .061
That isn't competitive at all and basically falls into "a broken clock is right twice a day" territory.  

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: HFA in general and this season
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2021, 05:29:42 PM »
I think, @medinabuckeye1 , that you're looking at this in a way similar to the below xkcd comic about p-values.

In any comparison like this, you're looking at large arrays of fundamentally small numbers. For any combination of two teams, you're looking at a maximum of about 25 games home, and 25 games away. Yet you have 55 combinations of teams. 

Any time you do that comparison, you're going to see outliers, just based on random chance. 

We as people try to analyze and assign meaning to things that are often basically random chance. 

I mean, look at Minnesota vs both Indiana and Purdue. Minnesota has a "HFA" variance of 0.623 over Indiana and 0.381 over Purdue, and this is a team that spent almost the entirety of those 50 years playing in an off-campus NFL stadium. That's absurd. Now, maybe you can say that's because they were in a dome, yet Minnesota has 4 of the top 14 HFA but also has 3 of the bottom 12 HFA, so it's not that they have some magical HFA over everyone. 

Purdue, likewise, is 2nd and 3rd in the "best" HFA even though Ross-Ade isn't terrifying to opponents, and is also 48th and 49th in "worst" HFA. 

This is random chance...



medinabuckeye1

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Re: HFA in general and this season
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2021, 06:14:28 PM »
I think, @medinabuckeye1 , that you're looking at this in a way similar to the below xkcd comic about p-values.

In any comparison like this, you're looking at large arrays of fundamentally small numbers. For any combination of two teams, you're looking at a maximum of about 25 games home, and 25 games away. Yet you have 55 combinations of teams.

Any time you do that comparison, you're going to see outliers, just based on random chance.

We as people try to analyze and assign meaning to things that are often basically random chance.

I mean, look at Minnesota vs both Indiana and Purdue. Minnesota has a "HFA" variance of 0.623 over Indiana and 0.381 over Purdue, and this is a team that spent almost the entirety of those 50 years playing in an off-campus NFL stadium. That's absurd. Now, maybe you can say that's because they were in a dome, yet Minnesota has 4 of the top 14 HFA but also has 3 of the bottom 12 HFA, so it's not that they have some magical HFA over everyone.

Purdue, likewise, is 2nd and 3rd in the "best" HFA even though Ross-Ade isn't terrifying to opponents, and is also 48th and 49th in "worst" HFA.

This is random chance...
Oh I definitely think you are right, in 55 different data-sets there are going to randomly be some crazy outliers.  I basically consider all 10 instances of "Home Field Disadvantage" to fall into that category along with the ridiculously large HFA in the MN/IU series.  

You are also right that it is a pretty small number of games that make up these differences.  Consider Ohio State vs Michigan from 1970-2019:
  • 12-12-1 in Ann Arbor
  • 16-8-1 advantage for tOSU in Columbus

If you flipped two games each in Ann Arbor and Columbus from the home team to the road team you'd get this:
  • 14-10-1 advantage for tOSU in Ann Arbor
  • 14-10-1 advantage for tOSU in Columbus

What I am illustrating here is that even the seemingly large 0.160 HFA in the tOSU/M series over the 50 years really only means that the home team won four extra games over 50 years (roughly once every 12-13 years).  

Even the second largest differential (PU vs MN) isn't much bigger:
  • 14-7 advantage for Purdue vs Minnesota in West Lafayette
  • 15-6 advantage for Minnesota vs Purdue in Minneapolis

If you flipped four games each from the home team to the road team you'd get this:
  • 11-10 advantage for Minnesota vs Purdue in West Lafayette
  • 11-10 advantage for Minnesota vs Purdue in Minneapolis

So here we are talking about eight games in 50 years meaning that the home team won an extra game roughly every six years.  

Excluding IU/MN which I agree is a random outlier, HFA varies from slightly negative to roughly one extra win for the home team every six years or so.  It is a thing.  It does exist and it does matter but it also isn't the end-all-be-all.  

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: HFA in general and this season
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2021, 06:30:57 PM »
The bigger question... How do you explain this? 



Obviously when you look at 55 individual pairings, the numbers are too small to really show a major difference. But in this case, you're looking at typically around 200 home games and 200 road games for each team. That should smooth out the variances.

Northwestern and Illinois don't seem to have strong HFA. That makes sense. Every game for Northwestern seems to be a road game because of opposing fans who have settled in Chicago coming to games, and their own fans' apathy. I'd venture Illinois might be similar... Lots of apathy in their own fan base and it's a short drive from Chicago or Indianapolis.

But how do you explain Ohio State having such a weak HFA? Ohio State has rabid fans who fill the 'shoe every game. The only thing maybe I can think is that it's similar to our tiers in basketball, where teams in the top tiers simply have more opportunity for negative upsets? I.e. that it's really hard to go THAT much better than 0.825 at home over 5 decades, so their dominance at home is capped? 

Is that why IU also has the second-highest HFA despite being a basketball school? It's hard to do worse than 0.210 away, so their suckitude is capped as well? Yet that doesn't seem to affect Northwestern, who has a similar home win percentage of 0.378 to IU's 0.370, but doesn't have the same ineptitude on the road as IU... 

And then there's Minnesota. Is it possible their HFA was due to playing in an indoor NFL stadium for almost 30 of those 50 seasons? Any chance you can look at their HFA from 1970-1981 plus 2009-2019, and then compare it to their HFA from 1982-2008?

I would expect that teams with more fan engagement like OSU would have higher HFA advantage than teams like IU who suck and whose fans are rooting for Notre Dame football while they wait for basketball to start... The fans certainly believe they're the "12th man", but clearly nothing in the table above justifies that fan volume is the key driver of HFA...


Cincydawg

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Re: HFA in general and this season
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2021, 06:58:30 PM »
Statistics are probably confusing, perhaps, at times, on average.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: HFA in general and this season
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2021, 07:12:23 PM »
The bigger question... How do you explain this?



Obviously when you look at 55 individual pairings, the numbers are too small to really show a major difference. But in this case, you're looking at typically around 200 home games and 200 road games for each team. That should smooth out the variances.

Northwestern and Illinois don't seem to have strong HFA. That makes sense. Every game for Northwestern seems to be a road game because of opposing fans who have settled in Chicago coming to games, and their own fans' apathy. I'd venture Illinois might be similar... Lots of apathy in their own fan base and it's a short drive from Chicago or Indianapolis.

But how do you explain Ohio State having such a weak HFA? Ohio State has rabid fans who fill the 'shoe every game. The only thing maybe I can think is that it's similar to our tiers in basketball, where teams in the top tiers simply have more opportunity for negative upsets? I.e. that it's really hard to go THAT much better than 0.825 at home over 5 decades, so their dominance at home is capped?

Is that why IU also has the second-highest HFA despite being a basketball school? It's hard to do worse than 0.210 away, so their suckitude is capped as well? Yet that doesn't seem to affect Northwestern, who has a similar home win percentage of 0.378 to IU's 0.370, but doesn't have the same ineptitude on the road as IU...

And then there's Minnesota. Is it possible their HFA was due to playing in an indoor NFL stadium for almost 30 of those 50 seasons? Any chance you can look at their HFA from 1970-1981 plus 2009-2019, and then compare it to their HFA from 1982-2008?

I would expect that teams with more fan engagement like OSU would have higher HFA advantage than teams like IU who suck and whose fans are rooting for Notre Dame football while they wait for basketball to start... The fans certainly believe they're the "12th man", but clearly nothing in the table above justifies that fan volume is the key driver of HFA...
My guesses for some of these:

Look at Ohio State first.  The wiseguys in Vegas generally say that HFA is around 3-5 points.  Those points always matter to gamblers because whether Ohio State beats their hapless opponent by 27 (home) or 21 (away) is a big deal if you are betting on the game and Ohio State is favored by 24.  However, for the rest of us I would venture to guess that nobody really cares whether Ohio State wins by 21 or 27.  Either way it is a pretty substantial win bordering on a blowout.  

We are only looking here at W's vs L's not point spreads so we couldn't care less whether Ohio State wins by 27, 21 or by an XP in OT.  It doesn't matter because any of those three simply entered the above chart as one W.  

Thus, I think that tOSU's HFA is rather mild simply because they were so good for most of those 50 years that there were not all that many games in which the difference was likely to fall within the roughly 3-5 point range where HFA could be decisive.  

Similarly, the two schools with even less HFA than tOSU (IL and NU) were so bad for most of those 50 years that there were not all that many games in which the difference was likely to fall within the roughly 3-5 point range where HFA could be decisive.  

One weakness of this theory is that Indiana should fall into the same category as IL and NU.  They were generally awful over the 50 years in question (worst % both at home AND on the road) yet for some reason there was a substantial difference between their home winning % of .370 and their road winning percentage of just .210.  

Here is another curiosity that I really can't explain, look at Ohio State and Michigan:

At home they were almost exactly equal:

  • 162-34-1 for the Buckeyes
  • 158-37-2 for the Wolverines
That is only a difference of 3.5 games over 50 years which is pretty clearly statistically insignificant.  

On the road the Buckeyes were relatively much better:
  • 143-45-4 for the Buckeyes
  • 134-57-3 for the Wolverines
That is a difference 10.5 games over 50 years or a little better than one every five years.  

It gets more inexplicable the more you think about it.  I've travelled to every B1G stadium and while Michigan's is huge I've often referred to it as "the quietest 100k people you will ever meet".  That isn't necessarily a knock on Michigan's fans.  It has more to do with architecture.  Unlike similarly sized two-deck stadiums such as the Horseshoe and Penn State's stadium in which the second decks hold in noise, Michigan's stadium is a giant bowl which just doesn't focus crowd noise on the field at all.  It really is remarkably quiet compared to tOSU, PSU, UW, etc.  

Based on that I'd have to assume that Ohio State gets a bigger boost from their crowd than Michigan does which would mean that since tOSU's and M's home records from 1970-2019 were effectively equal I'd have to concede that Michigan must have been putting a slightly better overall team on the field at home for that timeframe which was then made up for by Ohio State's somewhat louder home environment to yield an effectively equal home record.  All of that would lead one to predict that Michigan should have been substantially BETTER on the road but they weren't.  Why?  I can't explain that.  Maybe it is just because the home records for both teams (.807 for M, .825 for tOSU) are simply bumping up against the "dominance cap" that you referred to so it just doesn't matter after that.  




OrangeAfroMan

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Re: HFA in general and this season
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2021, 09:21:49 PM »
I compare it to a great baseball team's closer having a ceiling on getting tons of save opportunities because his team wins games by too much (on average).
And why bad teams can still have 40-save closers because most of their wins are close.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

bayareabadger

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Re: HFA in general and this season
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2021, 11:19:04 PM »
I compare it to a great baseball team's closer having a ceiling on getting tons of save opportunities because his team wins games by too much (on average).
And why bad teams can still have 40-save closers because most of their wins are close.
I'd be interested to see how top closer save numbers track with wins. Like, do bad teams have 40-save closers that often, or do we just not spend much if any time thinking about teams that don't have interesting closers. 

Hawkinole

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Re: HFA in general and this season
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2021, 01:50:45 AM »

What jumps out at you?
#17 Indiana @ #18 Iowa on Saturday. I have Iowa winning because of HFA.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: HFA in general and this season
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2021, 05:32:07 AM »
I'd be interested to see how top closer save numbers track with wins. Like, do bad teams have 40-save closers that often, or do we just not spend much if any time thinking about teams that don't have interesting closers.
Well, it's baseball, so it's definitely been studied in-depth.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

 

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