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Topic: Help - Notable Worst HCs

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MarqHusker

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Re: Help - Notable Worst HCs
« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2020, 01:15:15 PM »
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bayareabadger

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Re: Help - Notable Worst HCs
« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2020, 01:28:55 PM »
Quote from: Brutus Buckeye on July 28, 2020, 12:50:26 PM
I guess, but he had more talent at his disposal than everyone he went up against. The year before they went 12-1, with a share of the Big Ten Title. The year after they went 12-0, and would have smoked ND in the NCG if eligible. The Fickel roster was completely loaded up with guys from one or both of those teams. The fact that he couldn't muster 8 or 9 wins is ridiculous, frankly.

On a more macro level, OSU had one at least a share of the Big Ten Title in each of the six years prior to the Fickel season, and they have one at least a share of their Big Ten Divisional Title every season since. Yet he tied the school record for most losses in a season, right in the middle of a run like that? That is an alarming level of incompetence.
Perhaps. 

But you still have a chaos year, miserable QB play, mess of injuries. Looking back at those play-makers, I suppose the argument would've been Hyde could've been used more/better. Boom Herron was your best returning play-maker. He only plays half the year. Top receiver is lost after four games. 

It struck me as a coalescing of factors, not the least of which was you had this very finely built program. The offense often lagged, but a super veteran head coach seemed to always steer them to close wins. It meant success, but perhaps more vulnerable if things were out of sync. I understand the dip, but he's also sandwiched by one very good coach at close to his best and a guy on the short list for best of all time. That 2012 team also did go 12-0, but it needed a mess of close wins to pull it off. Without one of the best coaches ever, it's probably a more sensible good record. (directing that 2012 season is fascinating)

Anyway, this is not to say he was good, just that his P5 coaching is almost a blank slate. Just an incomplete. Probably not to the level of alarming incompetence. 
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MrNubbz

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Re: Help - Notable Worst HCs
« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2020, 01:43:15 PM »
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on July 28, 2020, 11:33:07 AM
As soon as I saw this thread I knew that it would generate a Cooper discussion. 


3 Conference titles which is tied for fourth best with Meyer and John Wilce behind only Woody (13), Tressel (6), and Bruce (4). 
Yes but Tressel & Bruce in the same relative time period with less years than Cooper


In those five years Ohio State wasn't great.  The 0-8-1 against Michigan and in bowls are terrible. 
That right there he gave a Blue Blood a Blacke Eye and blue balls.And was the reason most of us wanted him out.Nice guy,family man,friend,neighbor - not the guy to take a program to the topThe 13 NFL drafts following Coopers seasons in C-Bus were telling.When we last revisited this subject - 3 yrs ago or so,I counted draft picks.From NFL drafts from 1988 thru 2000 tOSU had 64 players taken.As fate would have it Michigan also had 64 players drafted during that stretch.So their should not have been that disparity of 2 wins in 13 seasons.Let's not forget he was on of the 1st CFB HC to ink a $1,000,000.per contract
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 01:54:56 PM by MrNubbz »
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FearlessF

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Re: Help - Notable Worst HCs
« Reply #45 on: July 28, 2020, 02:46:22 PM »
Bill Callahan head coaching


2002 Raiders 11-5
2003 Raiders 4-12

2004 Huskers 5-6
2005 Huskers 8-4
2006 Huskers 9-5
2007 Huskers 5-7

2019 Redskins 3-8
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Brutus Buckeye

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Re: Help - Notable Worst HCs
« Reply #46 on: July 28, 2020, 02:55:21 PM »
Quote from: bayareabadger on July 28, 2020, 01:28:55 PM
Perhaps.

But you still have a chaos year, miserable QB play, mess of injuries. Looking back at those play-makers, I suppose the argument would've been Hyde could've been used more/better. Boom Herron was your best returning play-maker. He only plays half the year. Top receiver is lost after four games.

It struck me as a coalescing of factors, not the least of which was you had this very finely built program. The offense often lagged, but a super veteran head coach seemed to always steer them to close wins. It meant success, but perhaps more vulnerable if things were out of sync. I understand the dip, but he's also sandwiched by one very good coach at close to his best and a guy on the short list for best of all time. That 2012 team also did go 12-0, but it needed a mess of close wins to pull it off. Without one of the best coaches ever, it's probably a more sensible good record. (directing that 2012 season is fascinating)

Anyway, this is not to say he was good, just that his P5 coaching is almost a blank slate. Just an incomplete. Probably not to the level of alarming incompetence.


Yeah, he gets a mulligan. No argument there. Nevertheless, he took a Ferrari for a test drive, and wrapped it around a tree. Any other HC in the Big Ten could have guided that roster to 8 or 9 wins. 

He did get to hire one assistant. In theory he could have brought in a guy to help with the offense. Instead he hired his buddy Mike Vrabel, who had zero coaching experience at the time because he was still playing in the NFL and had to retire in order to take the gig. 
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: Help - Notable Worst HCs
« Reply #47 on: July 28, 2020, 03:28:40 PM »
Quote from: bayareabadger on July 28, 2020, 01:28:55 PM
But you still have a chaos year, miserable QB play, mess of injuries. Looking back at those play-makers, I suppose the argument would've been Hyde could've been used more/better. Boom Herron was your best returning play-maker. He only plays half the year. Top receiver is lost after four games.

It struck me as a coalescing of factors, not the least of which was you had this very finely built program. The offense often lagged, but a super veteran head coach seemed to always steer them to close wins. It meant success, but perhaps more vulnerable if things were out of sync. I understand the dip, but he's also sandwiched by one very good coach at close to his best and a guy on the short list for best of all time. That 2012 team also did go 12-0, but it needed a mess of close wins to pull it off. Without one of the best coaches ever, it's probably a more sensible good record. (directing that 2012 season is fascinating)

Anyway, this is not to say he was good, just that his P5 coaching is almost a blank slate. Just an incomplete. Probably not to the level of alarming incompetence.
I agree that 2011 was a compilation of factors and I'll also add that 2011 wasn't NEARLY as bad as their record while 2012 wasn't NEARLY as good as their record.  

As my first evidence of this, I'll submit the 2011 and 2012 Purdue games because I attended both.  
  • 2011, at Purdue:  Ohio State was down 20-14 and scored what should have been the game-winning TD with just 0:55 on the clock.  They then flubbed the XP, went to OT, and lost 23-20.  
  • 2012, in Columbus:  Ohio State was down 22-14 LATE in the fourth quarter and threw an INT that looked to clinch the loss.  Then, miraculously, Purdue imploded (False start on 1st and 10, 1 yard gain on 1st and 15, 1 yard gain on 2nd and 14, 7 yard rush on 3rd and 13, punt for 39 net yards).  Then tOSU scored, got the 2pt conversion, andn won in OT.  

The 12-0 in 2012 included all of the following one-score games:
  • OT over PU
  • OT over UW
  • 1 point over MSU
  • 3 points over IU
  • 5 points over M
  • 7 points over Cal

Going 6-0 in one-score games is incredibly lucky.  

The 6-7 in 2011 included all of the following one-score games:
  • 5 points over Toledo
  • 4 points over UW
  • OT loss to PU
  • 3 point loss to MSU
  • 6 point loss to PSU
  • 6 point loss to M
  • 7 point loss to UNL (I was there, that game looked easily won and then it didn't)
  • 7 point loss to UF

The 2011 team went 2-6 in eight one-score games while the 2012 team went 6-0 in six one-score games.  If both would have gone .500 they would have been:
  • 8-5 in 2011, not great but not comically bad
  • 9-3 in 2012, good but not great
Instead they went 6-7 and 12-0 so it looks like they were horrible in 2011 and great in 2012 but they weren't either of those things.  

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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Help - Notable Worst HCs
« Reply #48 on: July 28, 2020, 03:37:59 PM »
Quote from: 847badgerfan on July 28, 2020, 11:09:28 AM
Says the guy who started watching college football in 1996.
The two circles of people playing CAH and have heard of those old Wisconsin HCs do not a Venn diagram make.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Help - Notable Worst HCs
« Reply #49 on: July 28, 2020, 03:40:09 PM »
Quote from: FearlessF on July 28, 2020, 02:46:22 PM
Bill Callahan head coaching


2002 Raiders 11-5
2003 Raiders 4-12

2004 Huskers 5-6
2005 Huskers 8-4
2006 Huskers 9-5
2007 Huskers 5-7

2019 Redskins 3-8
Or just the idea of Nebraska letting go of the option.  
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847badgerfan

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Re: Help - Notable Worst HCs
« Reply #50 on: July 28, 2020, 03:46:39 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on July 28, 2020, 03:37:59 PM
The two circles of people playing CAH and have heard of those old Wisconsin HCs do not a Venn diagram make.
BS. Any fan of a Big Ten school knows those coaches - at a minimum. Opposing fans adored them.
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FearlessF

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Re: Help - Notable Worst HCs
« Reply #51 on: July 28, 2020, 04:21:42 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on July 28, 2020, 03:40:09 PM
Or just the idea of Nebraska letting go of the option. 
ruining a historic run from 1962
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Brutus Buckeye

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Re: Help - Notable Worst HCs
« Reply #52 on: July 28, 2020, 05:53:58 PM »
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on July 28, 2020, 03:28:40 PM
I agree that 2011 was a compilation of factors and I'll also add that 2011 wasn't NEARLY as bad as their record while 2012 wasn't NEARLY as good as their record. 

As my first evidence of this, I'll submit the 2011 and 2012 Purdue games because I attended both. 
  • 2011, at Purdue:  Ohio State was down 20-14 and scored what should have been the game-winning TD with just 0:55 on the clock.  They then flubbed the XP, went to OT, and lost 23-20. 
  • 2012, in Columbus:  Ohio State was down 22-14 LATE in the fourth quarter and threw an INT that looked to clinch the loss.  Then, miraculously, Purdue imploded (False start on 1st and 10, 1 yard gain on 1st and 15, 1 yard gain on 2nd and 14, 7 yard rush on 3rd and 13, punt for 39 net yards).  Then tOSU scored, got the 2pt conversion, andn won in OT. 

The 12-0 in 2012 included all of the following one-score games:
  • OT over PU
  • OT over UW
  • 1 point over MSU
  • 3 points over IU
  • 5 points over M
  • 7 points over Cal

Going 6-0 in one-score games is incredibly lucky. 

The 6-7 in 2011 included all of the following one-score games:
  • 5 points over Toledo
  • 4 points over UW
  • OT loss to PU
  • 3 point loss to MSU
  • 6 point loss to PSU
  • 6 point loss to M
  • 7 point loss to UNL (I was there, that game looked easily won and then it didn't)
  • 7 point loss to UF

The 2011 team went 2-6 in eight one-score games while the 2012 team went 6-0 in six one-score games.  If both would have gone .500 they would have been:
  • 8-5 in 2011, not great but not comically bad
  • 9-3 in 2012, good but not great
Instead they went 6-7 and 12-0 so it looks like they were horrible in 2011 and great in 2012 but they weren't either of those things. 




I would postulate that a coaches record in one score games is directly correlated to their talents as a head coach. In 2012 Urban found a way to win all the one score games. Tressel made a career out of figuring out a way to win most of his one score games. Dantonio in his hey day won all kinds of one score games at MSU. Fickell on the other hand, choked more often then not in that situation. Blowing a 29 point lead, or whatever it was, against Nebraska? Sigh.... 

Fickell seems to have improved in this area at Cincinnati. In 2017 he was 3-1 in one score games, even though he was 4-8 overall. In 2018 he was 3-1 in one score games, 11-2 overall. Then last year he went 4-1 in one score games, 11-3 overall, and won his first conference title. 

So he is 10-3 in one score games over three seasons at Cincy, en route to a 26-13 overall record. 
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Help - Notable Worst HCs
« Reply #53 on: July 28, 2020, 09:12:02 PM »
I'll use Cooper, maybe connected to UM.  Thanks, guys.
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bayareabadger

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Re: Help - Notable Worst HCs
« Reply #54 on: July 28, 2020, 10:13:53 PM »
Quote from: Brutus Buckeye on July 28, 2020, 05:53:58 PM

I would postulate that a coaches record in one score games is directly correlated to their talents as a head coach. In 2012 Urban found a way to win all the one score games. Tressel made a career out of figuring out a way to win most of his one score games. Dantonio in his hey day won all kinds of one score games at MSU. Fickell on the other hand, choked more often then not in that situation. Blowing a 29 point lead, or whatever it was, against Nebraska? Sigh....

Fickell seems to have improved in this area at Cincinnati. In 2017 he was 3-1 in one score games, even though he was 4-8 overall. In 2018 he was 3-1 in one score games, 11-2 overall. Then last year he went 4-1 in one score games, 11-3 overall, and won his first conference title.

So he is 10-3 in one score games over three seasons at Cincy, en route to a 26-13 overall record.
The folks that have studied the close game stuff generally come down on the idea it's something that tends to even out. 

Having a good QB is often a good factor in. A good coach seems to help to a degree, though the measure of winning close games runs parallel with the measure of judging coaches (games won).

I don't know that it directly correlates simply because football is weird. One person's one mess up in one moment can change a one-score game. And no matter how great a coach, they do not account for or prevent those little mess ups. They aim to corral some, and they aim to assemble enough talent/effective play that they overwhelm and overcome the bounces. 

As you pointed out, the coach that went 2-6 went 10-3 a few years later. So that very well might support the idea that it's not so correlated. I do wonder a little if you had a Tressel ball team that needed to win a mess of close games to get to a nice total, then if you were 5-10 percent worse, many of those close wins become losses. 
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Kris60

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Re: Help - Notable Worst HCs
« Reply #55 on: July 28, 2020, 11:34:54 PM »
How this thread has went 4 pages without any mention of Kliff Kingsbury is beyond me.  

Dave Wannestedt was bad at Pitt. Pitt could have, and possibly should have, been the bully on the block in the new BE once Miami and company left. In six seasons there Wannestedt never won the conference and finished ranked once.

Steve Kragthorpe took over for Petrino at Louisville and promptly ran that program straight into the ground.
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