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Topic: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise

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Anonymous Coward

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #70 on: July 21, 2017, 07:33:30 PM »
You can call it arbitrary all you want but the fact is that you want to say "rah rah, my school is #1" and the ONLY way you can do that is by going back into the mists of ancient history. 

That may be how you see it through the rival lens, but I'd rather call it an unfortunate disservice to our conversation that I can't realistically switch to a different fanbase for a moment. Because then my objectively solid point couldn't be superficially torn just because "meh you're a fan; this feels predictable; my fingers go in my ears; I can't hear you."

Just as I prefer that we cite the global view of the 247 Composite rather than biasedly cherry-picking a single site (that favors our interests), I prefer the global view of "take all the years," rather than biasedly selecting boundaries within those years. Just as with a good experiment of some factor measured over time, I'd never cover up the first half of its graph, electing to disregard it as "less informationally dense than the second half."

I consider myself consistent in that respect.

You might read that and wish to counter-argue that the second paragraph was merely a reversed example of "meh you're a fan and this is predictable" (where I take that hose you pointed at me but point it at you), but the important distinction is bolded above. Taking an all-time scale is objectively less arbitrary than every chosen scale of smaller size.

This isn't to say that interesting trends and the value of recency can't be better gleaned by selecting boundaries that highlight some number fewer than "all the years," but it is to say that such boundaries (even benign appearing ones like "ever since the inaugural AP poll") are always more arbitrary than taking them all together.


If you asked any even remotely neutral fan "which is the best program in the B1G right now?" they would say Ohio State without hesitation. 

I don't understand why that is relevant. I don't disagree. It's also a different topic.

Perhaps you are sensitive to the possibility that I am claiming that arbitrarily drawn lines are meaningless or wrong, but I'm not making that kind of value judgment. I had tried and hoped I was clear in this regard. Maybe not.

I'm merely acknowledging semantically that arbitrarily drawn lines are arbitrarily drawn. I'm not trying to demean them. I'm just trying to give them that contextual stamp. To me, that's a quite small but incontrovertibly true matter.


« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 08:15:17 PM by Anonymous Coward »

MrNubbz

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #71 on: July 21, 2017, 08:08:35 PM »
Gotta be DudeK
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Anonymous Coward

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #72 on: July 21, 2017, 08:20:39 PM »

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #73 on: July 21, 2017, 10:53:41 PM »
It is 19 not 29, 1997 wasn't that long ago.  On the other hand that 1997 split title is Michigan's only NC in nearly 70 years.

Yeah, I was referring to ND, not Michigan.

I guess while I responded to Entropy's post, you posted in between ours.
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847badgerfan

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #74 on: July 22, 2017, 10:00:58 AM »
1942 doesn't seem arbitrary to me. A buttload of changes occurred as the result of World War 2 (also not arbitrary) in the college football landscape.

It even affected teams and kids directly at the time.

I mean, a Badger kid called "Crazy Legs" was forced to wear a silly helmet.
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FearlessF

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #75 on: July 22, 2017, 10:08:15 AM »
It is EASILY the most ridiculous one since the advent of the Polls.  That BYU team shouldn't have been in the top-10 let alone declared NC.

Flutie may have been in the top 10 or even top 5 best players in 84, but not the hypesman winner in my opinion
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Cincydawg

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #76 on: July 22, 2017, 01:21:27 PM »
The University of Tennessee Volunteers have won the second-most SEC football championships with 13. Other schools with double-digit trophies to their names include the University of Georgia Bulldogs with 12 and the Louisiana State Tigers with 11. The Gators have won a total of eight SEC titles.

Sources: secsports.go.com  wikipedia.org

Alabama has really dominated the SEC, which is not a shock.  The Vols are second though in numbers of SEC championships, and LSU and Florida are 4th and 5th.


OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #77 on: July 22, 2017, 01:58:10 PM »
Yeah, stuff seems to matter more when it happens after WWII, color TV, disco music, or motorized carriages.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Anonymous Coward

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #78 on: July 22, 2017, 02:21:21 PM »
I can get on board with admitting that CFB events since ~1942 share more in common with today than the events preceding that time. But that doesn't mean the year isn't arbitrary. A person is selecting those years for...reasons they decide to choose. That's automatically more arbitrary than not doing that.

As a separate idea: this thread should highly value the first decades of college football more than any other thread. Because in terms of Helmet prestige, those early solar system decades were the ones that decided which teams would be planets today and which would be asteroids or dust.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 02:23:35 PM by Anonymous Coward »

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #79 on: July 22, 2017, 02:33:06 PM »
Results:

46  Notre Dame (13-0-7)
45  Ohio State (6-13-1)
29  Oklahoma (1-7-12)

Sorry for the delay, I was traveling and then counting all the votes up on 2 boards.  ND had zero 2nd-place votes - I doubt that happens again for a winner. 

*Feel free to check my tabulation, it'd be easy to mess it up
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #80 on: July 22, 2017, 02:34:48 PM »
Next trio:

Michigan, Nebraska, Penn State
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Anonymous Coward

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #81 on: July 22, 2017, 02:41:19 PM »
I've been kind of dreading a UNL-PSU trio. Both are Helmets and separating them feels impossible.

Michigan
UNL
PSU

I feel perfectly unconfident about those two.

Cincydawg

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #82 on: July 22, 2017, 03:48:30 PM »
Same:

Michigan
Nebraska
Penn State

Michigan and Nebraska have slipped a bit more recently, as did Penn State, but PSU looks to be back, perhaps.  Nebraska had such a storied run in the 1990s it's hard not to count that as a something.

They were also really good before that.

Michigan may win this on "pure helmet" more than performance on the field.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #83 on: July 22, 2017, 04:44:02 PM »
I know there's a "helmet status" vs performance debate on this, but please keep in mind that there isn't a correct answer.  Just vote on your feel for the pecking order of these programs in your mind.  A school can have fewer NCs, Heismans, and a lower win% than another, but is more prestigious in your mind, and that's okay.

You may support your vote when asked by a fellow poster, but you're not required to in any way.  "I just feel this way" is a perfectly fine answer.  There's so many things to take into account, and we all utilize a different group of them to influence our votes.
All-time Win%
All-time NCs
poll-era win%
poll-era NCs
"my lifetime" results
last 50 years results
since WWII results
Heismans
TV appearances
conference championships
consistency
peaks
NCs spread among multiple coaches
recent success
distant past success
all-americans
identifiable helmet (literal)
bully of the conference
bully of the state

Taking these into account (and many more) and coming to your own conclusion is what makes this fun. 
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

 

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