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Topic: Heisman

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Cincydawg

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Re: Heisman
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2017, 04:29:24 PM »
Imagine Barkley plays very well, but PSU loses the next three games by 10 points total.  That would basically submerge his shot, given an alternative, like Love.

Love is hampered because of the time slot and that Stanford is not a top ten ranked team.

This award is for the QB or RB who makes some eye catching plays for a top ten team.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Heisman
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2017, 07:53:01 PM »
I wish they'd just acknowledge that and stop the "most outstanding player" garbage.
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Cincydawg

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Re: Heisman
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2017, 07:37:54 AM »
The "most outstanding" is just tradition.  The award gets enormous attention obviously, even in commercials.  I don't mind it in any sense, and I'm happy for whoever wins it, but I suspect all of us here fully realize what the award really means in most years.

I also think it impossible to determine who the best defensive player is also outside a rare year.  The draft position is a solid metric that "matters" but also is still judgment combined with positional need.

I remain amazed at why bad NFL teams will draft some star QB or RB and then wonder why he doesn't play very well behind a woeful offensive line.  Others find a QB from Akron or wherever behind a very good OL and suddenly he's All Pro.

The same is true for most skill position players.  A fantastic WR is not going to do much with a bad OL, nor is a great RB not named Barry Sanders.  I adhere to the "Wisconsin model" for the pros, who I rarely watch at all.  You'd think a bad NFL team would really try this, but I know fans want a turnaround NOW and not in five years.

So, they instead draft some flashy Manziel type who very very very predictably in that case cannot do squat.  I'm looking at you, Cleveland.
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ELA

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Re: Heisman
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2017, 08:51:44 AM »
I think I fall in the middle.  If you think a QB is legitimately worth the spot, you have to take him, even if you throw him behind a bad line.  But to reach to get one, just because it's the most important position, no.  And I think NFL teams have slowly started to realize that since QB reaching peaked in that year where there were like 5 in the first 11 picks, and it included Christian Ponder and Blaine Gabbert.

If you think a guy is worth the pick, then you take him, but I wouldn't worry about wasting a high pick on an OL, if there isn't a QB you like.
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Cincydawg

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Re: Heisman
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2017, 01:01:52 PM »
My thought is never to take a skill player above 15th.  If you have a top 15 pick, trade down for two picks, maybe a 28th and a 2nd round pick, whatever, unless the top OL is going to go high.  I'd draft OLs and DLs high, build from the inside out and then get a serviceable QB and RB to play behind them.

The ability of NFL scouts to identify great QBs is very dubious in my view.  Of course, I live in Cincinnati.

It would be interesting to compare the number of first round QBs with how many have not played out well.  It might be 50-50, and the number of 2nd and 3rd round picks starting is probably what 35-40%?
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Heisman
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2017, 07:23:34 PM »
Going back to 1936 and reassigning the Heismans based on each position getting it's fair quota is a fun/difficult exercise.
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FearlessF

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Re: Heisman
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2017, 08:07:38 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on October 19, 2017, 01:01:52 PM
My thought is never to take a skill player above 15th.  If you have a top 15 pick, trade down for two picks, maybe a 28th and a 2nd round pick, whatever, unless the top OL is going to go high.  I'd draft OLs and DLs high, build from the inside out and then get a serviceable QB and RB to play behind them.

The ability of NFL scouts to identify great QBs is very dubious in my view.  Of course, I live in Cincinnati.

It would be interesting to compare the number of first round QBs with how many have not played out well.  It might be 50-50, and the number of 2nd and 3rd round picks starting is probably what 35-40%?
Amen
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Geolion91

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Re: Heisman
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2017, 03:08:37 PM »
I remember reading an article where the author discussed that most of the top NFL QBs are not with the team that drafted them.  They usually struggle a couple years before they really figure things out.  He advocated not drafting QBs, but pick them up after they've been in the league a couple years.  Let another team pay the big signing bonus.
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MaximumSam

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Re: Heisman
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2017, 06:18:14 AM »
Still a lot of football to be played.  Barrett, Mayfield and the three running backs (Barkley, Love, Adams) are all probably in it.
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TresselownsUM

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Re: Heisman
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2017, 01:47:07 PM »
Still a lot of football to be played.  Barrett, Mayfield and the three running backs (Barkley, Love, Adams) are all probably in it.

all the above would be deserving if the vote were today.

I'd probably have Barkley in first right now, but by an absolute thread. I think he needs a couple 200 yard rushing games to keep in it. not impossible by any means.

Barrett's numbers are probably better than Troy's when he won it, if I recall Troy had 30 TDS and 5 picks that year, I'm going off the top of my head so I might be wrong. JT has 26 TDs to 1 pick right now, with 5 rushing TDs to boot. he's got a couple easy games yet, if he gets to 40 TDs passing with less than 5 picks and OSU doesn't lose, then I think it's JT's to take with the possible exception of Mayfield. Baker has a couple huge games left, starting this weekend with Bedlam. if he torches oky St, TCU then he can probably win it easy.

I agree with Love, he's a beast. it's too bad he missed the other OSU game, could have got some nice numbers there. but he's got a chance with ND and possible PAC 12 title game to get him over the hump as well
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