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Topic: Have you tested positive for COVID-19?
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OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #140 on:** June 20, 2024, 02:05:27 PM »

Quote from: Cincydawg on June 20, 2024, 01:30:34 PM

I think we know now at least that protecting the elderly should have been the primary focus on all fronts, and everyone else pretty much should carry on.

Sure, but conventional thinking was that the most at-risk in any general health scare is both ends of the spectrum - the elderly and the very young.
It was dumb luck that COVID didn't beat down kids as badly as it did old people.
And as the children being at low-risk going against conventional thinking, I think we wanted to make sure that was the case and not some delayed-reaction.

Again, this became radially politicized, but being too cautious is far better than not being cautious enough. You can't Monday-morning QB this thing and get upset over it.

And besides, most of the outrage had fuck-all to do with children's education and was obsessed about businesses going under. $$$ > well-being of children
and DO NOT try to explain away that one. It's a fact and everyone knows it.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #141 on:** June 20, 2024, 02:09:27 PM »

I find it useful to look back and ponder what could have been done better, without necessarily blaming anyone (or not). What could we do better next time? Next time will be different. But it's notable, to me, that "we" were doing a lot of nearly blind guessing that turned out, in retrospect, to have been deleterious.

847badgerfan · « **Reply #142 on:** June 20, 2024, 02:13:24 PM »

Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on June 20, 2024, 02:05:27 PM

Sure, but conventional thinking was that the most at-risk in any general health scare is both ends of the spectrum - the elderly and the very young.
It was dumb luck that COVID didn't beat down kids as badly as it did old people.
And as the children being at low-risk going against conventional thinking, I think we wanted to make sure that was the case and not some delayed-reaction.

Again, this became radially politicized, but being too cautious is far better than not being cautious enough. You can't Monday-morning QB this thing and get upset over it.

And besides, most of the outrage had fuck-all to do with children's education and was obsessed about businesses going under. $$$ > well-being of children
and DO NOT try to explain away that one. It's a fact and everyone knows it.

I recall a lot of cautiousness on this message board early on because we were all scared and in the dark. Things changed and now we know our failures.

As for the bolded...

Well, not for me, because I care deeply about education. For many kids, they were failed.

Illinois was essentially closed from April 2020 through June 2021. Same in California as I recall. They started hybrid at that point. Not sure when they went traditional.

Here, they closed in April 2020 in favor of Zoom. In August it went to hybrid and then in November it was fully traditional. So we lost about 3 months.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #143 on:** June 20, 2024, 02:15:37 PM »

There clearly was concern about BOTH education AND businesses going under. It isn't one OR the other, it was and is both.

But it's easiest to present a strawman to knock down even when nobody has asserted it.

847badgerfan · « **Reply #144 on:** June 20, 2024, 02:21:00 PM »

It hurt our business for sure. It cost us a lot of money to set people up at home, because we were not permitted to re-open our offices until June 2021.

All new computers, paying everyone's internet, and loss of production (that was the worst part - we could tell who was working normal and who wasn't because we had software installed to track usage).

betarhoalphadelta · « **Reply #145 on:** June 20, 2024, 02:23:26 PM »

Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on June 20, 2024, 01:59:36 PM

That's what we did.

I think there's this tradition of unions in the northeast that may or may not be too powerful, but I don't know how apt that is for the other 95% of the country.
At some stage, it just becomes a talking point with another villain. But I don't know.

I reluctantly volunteered to be the online-only person for my grade level. The other 3 were in-person. I got up, showered, and went into my classroom every day, as I knew if I tried rolling out of bed and teaching, it wouldn't have been as effective.

We all did our best and every decision we made at a district level was in the best interest of the students. If that wasn't the case everywhere, then that is unfortunate.

Yeah, but as you regularly point out, what your individual school district did is merely anecdotal evidence. Nice sample size

Honestly, whether it was the teacher union driving it or someone else in power is immaterial. The issue is that a lot of kids in this country lost a year or more of critical development, and as the study I linked says, it's not like it's being made up. In an attempt to "follow the science"--which wasn't really what the science was telling us--we caused significant harm to kids.

847badgerfan · « **Reply #146 on:** June 20, 2024, 02:27:40 PM »

The AFT and other big unions had a hand in writing the CDC guidance for schools closing/opening. That is outrageous to me.

And this one... Prison.

Randi Weingarten | American Federation of Teachers (aft.org)

OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #147 on:** June 20, 2024, 02:27:54 PM »

Quote from: Cincydawg on June 20, 2024, 02:15:37 PM

There clearly was concern about BOTH education AND businesses going under. It isn't one OR the other, it was and is both.

But it's easiest to present a strawman to knock down even when nobody has asserted it.

You don't have to assert something that happened years ago. Yeah, I can get some 90/10 ground beef - it's both lean and fat, but it's far more one than the other.

Some of you use 'straw man' incorrectly here. It's not a replacement for "nuh uh." It actually means something.

OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #148 on:** June 20, 2024, 02:33:43 PM »

Quote from: betarhoalphadelta on June 20, 2024, 02:23:26 PM

Yeah, but as you regularly point out, what your individual school district did is merely anecdotal evidence. Nice sample size

Agreed, but it was simply what I experienced, while noting my lack of knowledge about the unions thing.

Children's learning was hampered and their socialization was retarded. But also, no extra student-age children died that didn't have to. That's a success. We were extra careful - even too careful - to make sure of that. A bunch of teachers didn't die. A bunch of student relatives didn't die.

This is the correct outcome from something like this. "We were too cautious" is a good outcome. When one side of the scale is potential death, what's in the other side doesn't matter, even something as important as student learning.

OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #149 on:** June 20, 2024, 02:37:11 PM »

Quote from: 847badgerfan on June 20, 2024, 02:27:40 PM

The AFT and other big unions had a hand in writing the CDC guidance for schools closing/opening. That is outrageous to me.

And this one... Prison.

Randi Weingarten | American Federation of Teachers (aft.org)

A stakeholder being involved in the decision-making process?!? For shame! And yeah, based on her resume, she's the devil.

What planet are you on????

847badgerfan · « **Reply #150 on:** June 20, 2024, 02:41:54 PM »

Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on June 20, 2024, 02:37:11 PM

A stakeholder being involved in the decision-making process?!? For shame! And yeah, based on her resume, she's the devil.

What planet are you on????

Background doesn't sound like "the" science to me at all.

Weingarten holds degrees from Cornell University’s School of Industrial and Labor Relations and the Cardozo School of Law. She worked as a lawyer for the Wall Street firm of Stroock & Stroock & Lavan from 1983 to 1986.

She is an active member of the Democratic National Committee and numerous professional, civic and philanthropic organizations. Born in 1957 and raised in Rockland County, N.Y., Weingarten now resides in the Inwood neighborhood of New York City.

OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #151 on:** June 20, 2024, 02:45:38 PM »

She deserves prison because you don't like her resume?
You're losing it. Put down the kool-aid.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #152 on:** June 20, 2024, 02:46:11 PM »

Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on June 20, 2024, 02:27:54 PM

You don't have to assert something that happened years ago. Yeah, I can get some 90/10 ground beef - it's both lean and fat, but it's far more one than the other.

Some of you use 'straw man' incorrectly here. It's not a replacement for "nuh uh." It actually means something.

Well, there you have it folks, I'm not sure what "it" is here, something about choices in ground beef fat content. Or something.

A straw man argument is a distorted (and weaker) version of another person's argument that can easily be refuted (e.g., when a teacher proposes that the class spend more time on math exercises, a parent complains that the teacher doesn't care about reading and writing).

betarhoalphadelta · « **Reply #153 on:** June 20, 2024, 02:50:19 PM »

Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on June 20, 2024, 02:33:43 PM

Agreed, but it was simply what I experienced, while noting my lack of knowledge about the unions thing.

Children's learning was hampered and their socialization was retarded. But also, no extra student-age children died that didn't have to. That's a success. We were extra careful - even too careful - to make sure of that. A bunch of teachers didn't die. A bunch of student relatives didn't die.

This is the correct outcome from something like this. "We were too cautious" is a good outcome. When one side of the scale is potential death, what's in the other side doesn't matter, even something as important as student learning.

"We were too cautious" means one thing: we prioritized one important thing too much to the exclusion of other important things. There's harm in that.

The problem with only counting the body count is that you can justify almost anything without someone arguing against you. "The risk to kids is low and we think in-school instruction is critically important for their development, so schools should reopen." "SO YOU WANT DEAD KIDS/TEACHERS/RELATIVES, DO YOU?!?! YOU MONSTER!"

That's what this debate became. THAT'S what we're arguing against.

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Topic: Have you tested positive for COVID-19?

OrangeAfroMan

Re: Have you tested positive for COVID-19?

Cincydawg

Re: Have you tested positive for COVID-19?

847badgerfan

Re: Have you tested positive for COVID-19?

Cincydawg

Re: Have you tested positive for COVID-19?

847badgerfan

Re: Have you tested positive for COVID-19?

betarhoalphadelta

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847badgerfan

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OrangeAfroMan

Re: Have you tested positive for COVID-19?

OrangeAfroMan

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OrangeAfroMan

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847badgerfan

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OrangeAfroMan

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Cincydawg

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betarhoalphadelta

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