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Yeah, I'm not giving PSU much credit, but I think that's fair given what we've seen since they came into the league.

• 1993-2020 is 28 years, and they amassed 4 conference titles in that time. That's a little less than 1.5 per decade.
• Since division play started (2011), they've won the Leaders division once and won the East/B1GCCG once. So that's winning the division twice in the last decade.
• Their Leaders division title occurred in 2011, the year Fickell was the interim coach. So it relied on OSU having a down year. That was also part of the Brady Hoke era at Michigan, so it was admittedly a down coaching cycle for Michigan.
• In the 247 composite football rankings for 2021, Ohio State is 2nd nationally, Michigan is 13th, and Penn State is 21st. So they're not at the same talent level as the other two, despite being a helmet.

I think PSU and Nebraska are good teams, but I don't necessarily know that they're going to continue to keep their helmet quite as shiny as OSU and Michigan.

I admit there isn't much in the way of recent evidence to back it up but I've just always believed that being the most Northeasterly "Helmet" is a great position for PSU to be in and that if they ever got the right situation going there they could REALLY be scary.  Also, while PSU only has four titles in their 28 years in the league, Michigan only has five in the same time so it isn't like the Wolverines are running away from the Nittany Lions there.  

Yo guys go on and on about things that are pointless. It doesn’t matter what this one did 20, 30, 50, or 75 years ago. The landscape has changed. The Big Ten is now 14, demographics have changed, competitors have emerged, competitors have faded.

Just like every other board and depends on what the point is .Killin' time between contests

Yo guys go on and on about things that are pointless. It doesn’t matter what this one did 20, 30, 50, or 75 years ago. The landscape has changed. The Big Ten is now 14, demographics have changed, competitors have emerged, competitors have faded.

I don’t know much at all about either football in Michigan or Ohio. I know that Ohio State has been playing at a very high level for a long time, Michigan was good in the late 90’s but faded somewhat about 20 years ago.

None of that crap really matters for future success. The only thing that matters is what kind of support and facilities you have to be able to attract the recruits and great coaches to make them successful. I think Michigan can still get good recruits but they’re not getting the results on the field. What does the facilities look like?  I know they have a great stadium but what about the player amenities, lounges, support systems? 

Harbaugh came on strong with recruiting at first, how does he do now that the shine has rubbed off?  Is he able to put together a good offensive line? 

The other thing about a coach at a “Tier 1” program is that I’ve often thought that “whatever he will be, he will be by year three”.  Maybe not 100%. But more often than not you’ll know exactly what you’ve got by the third year.

Michigan facilities are very good, could be better.

Michigan is still one of the biggest brands in college football- despite not having won a league title since 2004 and despite having their asses handed to them by OSU/MSU since 2008.

Michigan football brings in $120+ million in revenue annually consistently. They are basically always in the top 3 in terms of revenue from football year in year out. They have maybe the richest active alum/booster in the entire country in Stephen Ross- who is the owner of the Miami Dolphins and of the Related Companies- the largest property developer in the entire United States. Stephen Ross is probably worth close to $10 billion and he's donated close to $500 million to the University of Michigan. Any time that school has needed money from him he opens the damn checkbook no questions asked.

Harbaugh's had no problem putting together good offensive lines. He's had MAJOR problems putting together a functional, modern offense and finding a legitimate stud QB.

Michigan can recruit elite kids from all over the country. They always have been able to. Them not being able to actually beat Ohio State has cost them so many elite kids they basically had in the bag. There's too many to name. Keep losing to Ohio State- and they won't come. 5* CB Domani Jackson from California- Michigan was looking great there til the MSU loss- and I suspect after Ohio State blows Michigan off the field- he'll flip to Bama from USC instead of to Michigan- where he's been leaning.

Michigan is an easy program to recruit to. But it's like any helmet team- see Texas or USC- you need a legit coach to win. These programs do not run themselves.

I see a President/AD at Michigan that are not all in on football whatsoever no questions asked do whatever it takes to win like the one I see at OSU- and I see a piss poor track record of hiring coaches. RichRod and Hoke were disasters, and while Harbaugh stabilized the program and brought it back to respectability- he is completely incapable of taking it to the next level. That is going to require real offensive strategy, modern passing offense, and elite QB/WR play- things he has NO clue on. For christ take he took the best WR prospect the state of Michigan has produced in nearly 20 years since Charles Rogers and turned him into a 6th round pick- a guy that is flashing in the NFL already and the Cleveland Browns brass are so high on they are going to probably get rid of OBJ. Urbz said it himself- he drove through a snowstorm to try and sign DPJ- he thought DPJ was a top 10 NFL Draft pick talent wise. And Jim The CTE retard f#ck turned him into a 6th round pick.

This isn't 1997. You can't "MAN BALL-ME STRONG" your way to victories vs elite teams anymore. Even Saban realized this and said hey you know what- we've got to massively upgrade our QB/WR play and modernize our passing offense and bring it to the 21st century. And if the literal KING of "MAN-BALL, PLAY DEFENZZZZE" did that- yeah then you have NO shot if you're just some CTE retard weirdo who has never won anything like Jim Harbaugh.

They seem to recruit in the 10-15 range according to 247 sports.  That doesn't mean everything but it suggests they could recruit better, in theory.  The consistent CFP teams recruit in the top five almost annually, if not entirely so.  They currently are ranked 7th in the CFP, which obviously is quite good, with three very winnable games left and then OSU of course.  My guess is JH is not fired and a lot of UM fans will be unhappy.

Expectations.

They recruit in the top 10-15 range when they suck.

When they are actually good? They recruit in that top 5 range like clockwork.

OK, so the core issue is lack of elite recruiting of late.  The FNG needs to up that game.

No. The core issue is not winning. You are not going to consistently land elite recruiting classes (top 5-10) on a year to year basis - if you don't actually win meaningful games.

There have been so many 5* recruits that Michigan was oh so close to landing, only for them to get their dicks kicked in by Ohio State and see those recruits say nah, I'm going to go somewhere else where I have a real shot to win something. 

Good responses. 

What is FNG?  Fired Next Guy? 

Future Next Guy?  

Sometimes in order to be great, others need to slip. It’s not a zero sum game.