header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: FIRE HARBAUGH

 (Read 16914 times)

MrNubbz

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 19992
  • Liked:
Re: FIRE HARBAUGH
« Reply #196 on: November 04, 2021, 03:51:18 PM »
Michigan can still win the conference this year of course.It would be ironic if they upset OSU, however unlikely that may seem.
Or say Tennessee upset Georgia,that would satisfy my sense of irony
"Let us endeavor so to live - that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 82673
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: FIRE HARBAUGH
« Reply #197 on: November 04, 2021, 03:56:06 PM »
I think the Vols have a shot, if they beat UK this weekend.  If they lose to UK they might not have the courage left in the bag.


medinabuckeye1

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 10621
  • Liked:
Re: FIRE HARBAUGH
« Reply #198 on: November 04, 2021, 04:02:24 PM »
IMHO, THE key question when considering a coaching change is what the program's reasonably expectation should be.  I think you start with history.  Michigan has 42 titles in this league and the league has been around for 115 years (not counting 2021).  That works out to roughly one title every 2.73 years or 3.65 titles every decade.  

Michigan was also out of the league for 10 seasons from 1907 through 1916 so they have 42 titles in 105 seasons of being in the league.  That improves those figures slightly to one title every 2.5 years or almost exactly four titles every decade.  

Then, as covered above, there are now roughly one-third less titles to go around so you would have to reduce that four titles per decade to 2.67.  

That, I think, ignores the fact that Michigan's real glory years were mostly pre-WWII.  Broken into era's:

  • 6 titles in 11 years prior to dropping out of the league (1896-1906).  This is 5.45 per decade.  
  • 9 titles in 17 years immediately after rejoining the league (1917-1933).  This is 5.29 per decade.  
  • 6 titles in 35 years from the middle of the depression up until just prior to Bo's arrival (1934-1968).  This is 1.71 per decade.  
  • 21 titles in 36 years under Bo and his immediate successors until they stopped winning titles (1969-2004).  This is 5.8 per decade.  
  • 0 titles in 16 years since their last (2005-2020).  This is obviously zero per decade.  

So what you have are three REALLY high peaks of 5+ titles per decade covering a total of 64 years from 1896-1906, 1917-1933, and 1968-2004.  Then you have two valleys of <2 titles per decade covering a total of 51 years from 1934-1968 and 2005-present.  

I realize that most Michigan fans are going to look at that and say "64>51 so we should be able to maintain the peaks".  I don't think so.  The titles from 1896-1906 and 1917-1933 are frankly ancient history.  The AP Poll didn't start until 1936.  These are the "leather helmet" titles.  

To an extent you could say the same thing about some of the 1934-1968 valley but I would put the beginning of the "modern era" at roughly post-WWII.  In the post-WWII era here is what Michigan has done:
  • EXTREMELY good immediately after the war.  Michigan won four-straight league titles from 1947-1950.  
  • Basically a complete non-factor from 1951 until hiring Bo.  Michigan won a grand total of ONE league title in the 18 years from 1951-1968.  
  • EXTREMELY good (at least within the league, less impressive nationally) from the hiring of Bo through 2004.  Michigan won 21 titles in 36 years from 1969-2004.  
  • Basically a complete non-factor from 2005-present.  Michigan hasn't won a league title in the 16 seasons since 2004.  


What is "Michigan's normal"?  Is is the 41 years from 1946-1950 and 1969-2004 when they were winning 5+ titles per decade or is it the 1951-1968 and 2005-present when they won one title in 34 years?  

I don't think that Michigan's normal and their expectation should be as low as the valley but I also don't think it should be as high as the peak.  

Personally, I think that @Cincydawg 's two per decade is reasonable.  @betarhoalphadelta came up with 2.6 but I think he is a little high for two reasons:
  • I don't think he is giving PSU enough credit.  Long-term I think they are in a great recruiting situation as the NE-most "helmet" and should be every bit as good as Michigan and possibly as good as
  • Ohio State.  Beta said that tOSU and Michigan should win 7/10 B1G-E titles then just allocated that 50/50.  I'm not seeing that.  Absolute legend Bo only broke even with Ohio State and I can throw in all kinds of qualifiers.  For one thing, Bo was 2-4-1 against Woody in his first seven years before winning three straight against the Buckeyes in Woody's last three years.  I think that post-1975 was post-peak Woody.  I think Earle was a good coach but hardly great, and then Bo got to coach against Cooper who was absolutely phenomenal for all but the last two games of the season where he was complete crap.  The Cooper factor is huge here.  As I showed above, no Michigan coach has done better than .500 against non-Cooper tOSU teams in almost 80 years.  I'm not saying that I expect tOSU's recent dominance to continue forever but even if you take just one game per decade away from Michigan that likely drops their division titles from 3.5 to 2.5 and their league titles from 2.6 to 1.9 (using Beta's logic otherwise).  


medinabuckeye1

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 10621
  • Liked:
Re: FIRE HARBAUGH
« Reply #199 on: November 04, 2021, 04:10:14 PM »
Bo Schembechler won 13 league titles in his 21 years at Michigan. 
Just one more thing on this, do you know how many of those were outright titles?  Five.  Here are Bo's titles:
  • 69 split with tOSU
  • 71 outright
  • 72 split with tOSU
  • 73 split with tOSU
  • 74 split with tOSU
  • 76 split with tOSU
  • 77 split with tOSU
  • 78 split with MSU
  • 80 outright
  • 82 outright
  • 86 split with tOSU
  • 88 outright
  • 89 outright

Times are just different now.  During Woody and Bo's 10 Year War the Buckeyes and Wolverines won eight titles EACH plus MSU won one as well.  That is 17 total titles in 10 years or 1.7 titles per year.  Today there are ONLY 10 titles per decade to be won.  

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 45563
  • Liked:
Re: FIRE HARBAUGH
« Reply #200 on: November 04, 2021, 04:12:19 PM »
split titles shouldn't be counted unless you held the head to head tiebreaker
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Brutus Buckeye

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12081
  • Liked:
Re: FIRE HARBAUGH
« Reply #201 on: November 04, 2021, 04:34:30 PM »
split titles shouldn't be counted unless you held the head to head tiebreaker
What if they didn't play each other? 

medinabuckeye1

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 10621
  • Liked:
Re: FIRE HARBAUGH
« Reply #202 on: November 04, 2021, 04:37:27 PM »
What if they didn't play each other?
Or if three teams went 1-1 against each other and shared the title.  

As a practical matter I'm not going to go through 115 years of league history and figure out which titles we think should be deleted.  I'm just going to use the league's official records.  

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 45563
  • Liked:
Re: FIRE HARBAUGH
« Reply #203 on: November 04, 2021, 04:43:54 PM »
sure those scenarios are fine, split the title

as a practical matter I don't blame you, not worth the extra effort

just saying, as we all know...  claiming a title when the tiebreaker is head to head and one team lost is just silly
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Brutus Buckeye

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12081
  • Liked:
Re: FIRE HARBAUGH
« Reply #204 on: November 04, 2021, 04:52:08 PM »
sure those scenarios are fine, split the title

as a practical matter I don't blame you, not worth the extra effort

just saying, as we all know...  claiming a title when the tiebreaker is head to head and one team lost is just silly
Often times the Big Ten would award the Rose Bowl to the losing team in that scenario. 

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 45563
  • Liked:
Re: FIRE HARBAUGH
« Reply #205 on: November 04, 2021, 04:53:08 PM »
well, perhaps not often, but enough to really piss off Bo
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

medinabuckeye1

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 10621
  • Liked:
Re: FIRE HARBAUGH
« Reply #206 on: November 04, 2021, 05:06:40 PM »
Often times the Big Ten would award the Rose Bowl to the losing team in that scenario.
Aside from the no-repeat rule which wasn't a tiebreaker but rather just a way to spread RB appearances around, I don't know of this happening.  

Brutus Buckeye

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12081
  • Liked:
Re: FIRE HARBAUGH
« Reply #207 on: November 04, 2021, 05:12:33 PM »
Yeah, the no repeat rule. Didn't matter who won the H-H. 

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 45563
  • Liked:
Re: FIRE HARBAUGH
« Reply #208 on: November 04, 2021, 05:23:42 PM »
1973 Buckeyes and Wolverines annual football game between Michigan and Ohio State ended in a 10-10 tie, but one team still won and the other team lost. The game caused much angst among two sizable fan bases and ultimately changed the Big Ten Conference's bowl structure for good.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 16786
  • Liked:
Re: FIRE HARBAUGH
« Reply #209 on: November 04, 2021, 05:49:19 PM »
The Michigan HC should go all in on beating OSU. Don't talk about getting to Indy or making the Playoffs, just all OSU all the time. If they build a team that can compete with OSU on a regular basis, then the Big Ten titles and Playoff appearances will simply be a byproduct of that.
Bingo. This is just fact.

Tressel turned it around at Ohio State by basically stating day one at that basketball game that he was all in 24/7, 365 on beating Michigan.

The Michigan program entire MO has to be- BEAT OHIO STATE. They need to live it and breathe it 24/7, 365. They need a coach who will do nothing but preach that 24/7, 365- BEAT OHIO STATE.

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.