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Topic: Federal Debt and Deficit

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FearlessF

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Re: Federal Debt and Deficit
« Reply #140 on: July 30, 2024, 03:02:35 PM »
would youse smart fellas hurry up and resolve this Fed Debt and Deficit issue already
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

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Re: Federal Debt and Deficit
« Reply #141 on: July 31, 2024, 12:23:29 PM »
would youse smart fellas hurry up and resolve this Fed Debt and Deficit issue already
There really is no practicable solution.  The best situation would be to get our debt:GDP ratio back under one, which probably is not going to happen either.

IF we really cut spending and raised taxes sufficiently, the economy would collapse, and revenue would tank.  We're addicted to debt.

Gigem

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Re: Federal Debt and Deficit
« Reply #142 on: September 17, 2024, 02:59:10 PM »
I've been thinking about this thread since it was first posted.  I probably should go back and re-read the previous 11 pages, but one question that has bugged me is what conditions led to the small period of time in the late 90's that led to a surplus?  I can remember at the time the gov't had ran deficits from the 60's until the 90's, and then the Republican Party took power in like '94 and had their contract with America, and then we had a gov't shutdown, and then not long after we had surpluses.  I do remember welfare reform and shrinking of the military at that time, but as we've stated the # 1 cause of the debts and deficits are entitlements.  

Were the entitlements of the era much smaller than they are today?  And if so, was the federal government able to just cut discretionary spending and get things under control?  

Or was it a mixture of the economy being supercharged, bringing in more taxes, at the same time the gov't made modest cuts and these factors combined to create the surplus?  I do remember that after W got elected, it didn't take long at all to start running deficits again.  Blame 9/11 or the GWT (Global War on Terror), but it seems like we hit GO and never looked back.  

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Federal Debt and Deficit
« Reply #143 on: September 17, 2024, 03:15:25 PM »
I've been thinking about this thread since it was first posted.  I probably should go back and re-read the previous 11 pages, but one question that has bugged me is what conditions led to the small period of time in the late 90's that led to a surplus?  I can remember at the time the gov't had ran deficits from the 60's until the 90's, and then the Republican Party took power in like '94 and had their contract with America, and then we had a gov't shutdown, and then not long after we had surpluses.  I do remember welfare reform and shrinking of the military at that time, but as we've stated the # 1 cause of the debts and deficits are entitlements. 

Were the entitlements of the era much smaller than they are today?  And if so, was the federal government able to just cut discretionary spending and get things under control? 

Or was it a mixture of the economy being supercharged, bringing in more taxes, at the same time the gov't made modest cuts and these factors combined to create the surplus?  I do remember that after W got elected, it didn't take long at all to start running deficits again.  Blame 9/11 or the GWT (Global War on Terror), but it seems like we hit GO and never looked back. 
Basically if you want to boil things down to be incredibly lacking nuance and make it simpler than anything ever truly is, it's probably three things:

  • The economy was absolutely supercharged. If you look at the Fed data, from the early 90s to 2000 the federal tax revenue as a percentage of GDP went from about 17% to 20%. ~20% ties the highest in history, which was in the 1940s. (Possibly fact-check me--maybe it's happened in the distant past during wartime but I don't think so...) This was driven by the computing/internet boom IMHO more than anything else. 
  • Republicans were in control of Congress while a Democrat was in the White House. They wouldn't authorizing the spending of a dime that Clinton could take credit for, so this reined in spending. There's actually some academic research that this combo (Rs control Congress and D in the WH) is actually the lowest-spending combination. Much lower than R+R, D+D, as you might expect, but even lower than D-Congress+R-WH. It seems that the Democrats are willing to spend money even when an R is in the WH, probably because they know gov't programs last forever so they're getting what they want. This coupled with rapid economic expansion led to federal spending as a percentage of GDP dropping over that same early 1990s to 2000 period.  
  • Yes, entitlements were different. In the early 80s they pushed for Social Security tax increases because they saw the structural issues with entitlements and wanted to build up the "trust fund". Social security taxes were lower in 1980 and gradually increased to reach their current rate in 1990. This led to excess money coming into the federal government, and as I've said many times over this thread, that money was lent to the general fund so Congress didn't have to raise new federal debt to cover their spending. If you look at the trust fund (see below graph) you'll see where some of that money to generate that surplus came from--it was social security tax receipts, NOT just income / corporate tax receipts. 




So yeah, massive economic growth, gridlock in government, and a bunch of excess taxes that weren't needed for current entitlement benefits due to demographics. That's how we got a surplus. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Federal Debt and Deficit
« Reply #144 on: September 17, 2024, 03:25:50 PM »
I've been thinking about this thread since it was first posted.  I probably should go back and re-read the previous 11 pages, but one question that has bugged me is what conditions led to the small period of time in the late 90's that led to a surplus?  I can remember at the time the gov't had ran deficits from the 60's until the 90's, and then the Republican Party took power in like '94 and had their contract with America, and then we had a gov't shutdown, and then not long after we had surpluses.  I do remember welfare reform and shrinking of the military at that time, but as we've stated the # 1 cause of the debts and deficits are entitlements. 

Were the entitlements of the era much smaller than they are today?  And if so, was the federal government able to just cut discretionary spending and get things under control? 

Or was it a mixture of the economy being supercharged, bringing in more taxes, at the same time the gov't made modest cuts and these factors combined to create the surplus?  I do remember that after W got elected, it didn't take long at all to start running deficits again.  Blame 9/11 or the GWT (Global War on Terror), but it seems like we hit GO and never looked back. 
It was a whole lot of things and you hit on most of the big ones.  

The biggest:
Were the entitlements of the era much smaller than they are today?  
Yes.  

The baby boom is considered 1946-1964.  In 1990 those folks were 26-44.  They were all in or entering their prime earning years.  30 years later in 2020 they were all 56-74.  They were all in or entering retirement.  

The retirees of 1990 were mostly people born in the mid-1920's and prior.  Here is a site I found (just googled, so not vouching for it but looks ok, maybe).  US births for the years shown from 1910-1945 are all around 2.5 to a little under 3M.  It started really climbing after WWII and peaked at 4.3M in 1957.  It stayed above 4M through 1964 (last year of the aforementioned Baby Boom) then started dropping.  I personally was born in the trough of the baby-bust.  Annual births in 1973-1975 were <3.2M, the only such post-war years.  

People tend to be at peak earnings at around 30-50.  Before that people are generally getting into position and after that people start winding down and retiring.  Also note that people over 50 tend to be less likely to seek out increases because they have less time left to collect the rewards.  

When you look at the economy, a lot of the mystery can be answered simply by asking "who is 30-50".  In 1990 the 30-50 year olds were born from 1940-1960 so that covers most of the baby boom.  Then in the mid-1990's the people entering that cohort started to be the less numerous children of the mid-1960's while the people exiting that cohort were the VERY numerous children of the mid-1940's. The last baby-boomer exited that cohort in 2014.  

Entitlements are up because:
  • There are a LOT more retirees for at least two reasons:  I, people are living longer; II, more people were born 60-90 years ago (1934-1964) than were born 60-90 years prior to 1990 (1900-1930).
  • Healthcare costs (much of it borne by Medicare and Medicaid) have been rising faster than overall prices for decades.  
  • The Medicare Rx benefit was added in 2006.  


On the defense side of things, IIRC, postwar defense spending peaked during Korea (1950-1953), Vietnam (mostly 1964-1972 with some minor involvement before and after those dates) and the Reagan-era buildup (1981-1989).  Then the Berlin Wall came down and defense spending dropped for a while before 9/11 sent it back up.  The mid-1990's was after the Wall came down and before the Towers came down so defense spending was comparatively low.  

Politically, when R's took Congress (both houses) in the 1994 elections then Clinton held the WH you had a situation where they were fighting and not wanting each other to get credit for any major new initiatives so basically not much happened and as it turns out, that is cheap.  

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Federal Debt and Deficit
« Reply #145 on: September 17, 2024, 04:13:19 PM »
I do want to highlight one more thing here. I've already said it, but I want to make it more explicit:

Q. What is one of the reasons that we had a government surplus during the late 1990s?

A. Because Congress was spending the money in the Social Security Trust Fund for things that weren't Social Security. 

I'm not going to say something like they were "raiding" the SSTF. They weren't. They were actually spending the money in exactly the way that the SSTF was legislatively set up to be used

But it had two negative effects on the American public:


  • Because we were running a surplus, it made them think that current income/corporate/other tax collections were sufficient to fund the government's spending. They weren't. It was relying on a separate tax stream--Social Security taxes--to fund current spending. So what we THOUGHT was paying for the spending and generating a surplus was actually insufficient to do so. We were spending more than our income/corporate/other taxes could support, but it was "hidden" due to the SSTF monies. 
  • It gave the public the belief that we were forward-thinking and protecting Social Security for the future, by putting that money in the SSTF. But since that money was being immediately spent and replaced by treasury bills, it meant that all we were doing was kicking the can down the road to be picked up by future taxpayers / future debt. 


It was genius... And deceptive as fck. 

Cincydawg

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Re: Federal Debt and Deficit
« Reply #146 on: September 17, 2024, 04:13:26 PM »

847badgerfan

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Re: Federal Debt and Deficit
« Reply #147 on: September 17, 2024, 04:22:26 PM »
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Federal Debt and Deficit
« Reply #148 on: September 17, 2024, 04:24:47 PM »
I don't like that one bit. Leave it in place.
Same here.

The article states that in high tax blue states the government does a lot for their citizens.  Ok, but in lower tax red states the people are left to do those things themselves and they don't get to deduct private expenditures so why should people in high tax states be able to deduct payments for the same services?  

847badgerfan

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Re: Federal Debt and Deficit
« Reply #149 on: September 17, 2024, 04:31:19 PM »
Exactly.

SALT coming hurt us badly when we lived in Illinois. Now it doesn't matter at all to us. No state income tax and our property tax bill just went DOWN to $3,200.

Our property taxes alone were $15,000 and I'm not sure what the hell WE got from that. 

Then we each were paying 5 percent state income tax in our prime earning years. I'm not sure what the hell WE got from that. 

Not to mention a 10.5 percent sales tax.

F Illinois and the rest of those states. People vote for that shit, and they can live with it.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

utee94

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Re: Federal Debt and Deficit
« Reply #150 on: September 17, 2024, 05:07:27 PM »
Exactly.

SALT coming hurt us badly when we lived in Illinois. Now it doesn't matter at all to us. No state income tax and our property tax bill just went DOWN to $3,200.

Our property taxes alone were $15,000 and I'm not sure what the hell WE got from that.

Then we each were paying 5 percent state income tax in our prime earning years. I'm not sure what the hell WE got from that.

Not to mention a 10.5 percent sales tax.

F Illinois and the rest of those states. People vote for that shit, and they can live with it.
Thus the beauty of Federalism.  

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Federal Debt and Deficit
« Reply #151 on: September 17, 2024, 05:38:58 PM »
Yet many of those blue states are funding red states. https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/donor-states

California, in fact, is the state that gets back the 7th-lowest percentage of federal dollars compared to what our state gives to DC. We get back, as a state, only 65 cents on the dollar in benefits compared to what we actually pay. Illinois is even worse at only 60 cents. And you criticize us

I'd rather you just say thank you, and be on your way. 

FearlessF

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Re: Federal Debt and Deficit
« Reply #152 on: September 17, 2024, 09:43:04 PM »
thank you

percentages be damned

states like North & South Dakota don't get much

Fly over states
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utee94

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Re: Federal Debt and Deficit
« Reply #153 on: September 17, 2024, 09:44:39 PM »
Yet many of those blue states are funding red states. https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/donor-states

California, in fact, is the state that gets back the 7th-lowest percentage of federal dollars compared to what our state gives to DC. We get back, as a state, only 65 cents on the dollar in benefits compared to what we actually pay. Illinois is even worse at only 60 cents. And you criticize us.

I'd rather you just say thank you, and be on your way.

You choose to live there.  Federalism applies to you, too.  Move if you don't like it.

But I'll be generous and say, "Thanks for the loot, keep it coming.  U-S-A! U-S-A!"

 

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