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Topic: Federal Debt and Deficit

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medinabuckeye1

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Re: Federal Debt and Deficit
« Reply #462 on: August 04, 2025, 12:40:52 PM »
Problems of trying to scale-up the above "Ohio solution" to a federal level:

Problem #1 is the review issue:
In Ohio the local government revenue estimates are reviewed by the County Budget Commission which is made up of independently elected officials.  Statewide I believe that the State Budget works similarly with a State Budget Commission made up of the independently elected State Treasurer, State Auditor, and Attorney General.  It is EXTREMELY unlikely that the Budget Commission would fudge the numbers because the budget shortfall is NOT their problem.  

What body would approve the Federal revenue estimate?  There is a never-ending debate over executive authority but under the Constitution "The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America" (first sentence, Article II.  This is the basis of the theory of the unitary executive which basically says that the President IS the executive branch and holds ALL the power that the Executive branch holds.  This is different in Ohio where the voters separately elect the Governor, Auditor, Treasurer, Attorney General, and Secretary of State.   

Also, there isn't a higher level of Government.  In Ohio Cities, Villages, Townships, School Districts, etc submit their revenue estimates to the (higher level) County Budget Commission.  

I can't think of a good answer to this question.  

Problem #2 is the National Emergency issue:
This was already referenced upthread.  I actually think that this one isn't insurmountable.  I think that any federal balanced budget requirement would have to have a work-around but I think you could simply build in thresholds that required increasingly large Congressional majorities to exceed.  For example (this isn't @medinabuckeye1 's proposal, just an example of the concept):

  • For the budget to exceed the set limitation by up to 2% of GDP, 60% majorities are required in the Senate and HoR.  
  • For the budget to exceed the set limitation by up to 4% of GDP, 65% majorities are required in the Senate and HoR.  
  • For the budget to exceed the set limitation by up to 6% of GDP, 70% majorities are required in the Senate and HoR.  
  • 8% requires 75% majorities.  
  • 10% requires 80% majorities.  
  • 12% requires 90% majorities.  
  • 14% or more requires 95% majorities.  
In that way you *COULD* fight WWII (max deficit spending was at 27% of GDP in 1943) but you would have to have 95% support in Congress so basically EVERYONE would have to agree.  I *THINK* this would get around the potential problem laid out here:
I figure anything saying the budget "has to be balanced" would have to have some emergency caveat in it, that would be used without mercy.
Congress might be able to accomplish the work-around for a minor violation but I set this up with increasingly large supermajorities requires for larger violations in an effort to solve this issue.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Federal Debt and Deficit
« Reply #463 on: August 04, 2025, 12:54:05 PM »
How much of a fiscal requirement is off budget, like pension plans (Illinois)?

Since the CA HSR has been such a massive success, should states emulate that and build their own HSR lines?

I read on occasion that some state (usually CA) has some massive budget deficit they HAVE to close.  Do they really balance their budget without smoke and mirrors?

What happens to a state when the economy goes south suddenly and tax receipts come un way under estimates?  I know some have an RD fund for that.
I don't know the answers to all of these questions in part because while I am VERY familiar with Ohio Budget Law, I have literally zero experience with Budget laws in other states.  

An Ohio-based answer to these:
Off Budget:
In Ohio, none of the spending is off-budget.  Anything that any Ohio Government spends has to be approved by the appropriate legislature.  Pension systems do obviously incur liabilities beyond the current year and I think that is more what you are asking about.  In Ohio, it wouldn't become a budgetary law issue until you ran out of pension investments with which to pay the liabilities.  

My solution (outlined elsewhere long ago) would be to simply apply ERISA to public sector pensions.  ERISA is the Federal Law that requires companies that offer pensions to actually fund the pensions.  It was passed in response to the Studebaker bankruptcy.  When it was passed, public sector pensions were exempted.  The actual mechanics of doing it would be more complex but my solution here is to simply eliminate the exemption.  

CA HSR:
LoL.  

Balance budget, smoke and mirrors:
In Ohio they HAVE to balance the budget without smoke and mirrors in part because in addition to budget laws we have debt limitations.  Ohio Governments (including the State itself) can only borrow an amount limited to a % of the total taxable value of real estate in the jurisdiction and additionally we can ONLY borrow for capital projects.  Thus, if an Ohio City wants to build a canal they can issue bonds for that but if they are short cash and need to make payroll they CANNOT borrow money for that.  

Tax receipts under estimates:
The CFO of the government in question is statutorily required to "maintain" the revenue estimate.  There are optional and mandatory amendments.  What you are referring to here would be a mandatory adjustment.  

Example:
A few years ago Chrysler closed what had been operated for decades as the "Twinsburg Stamping Plant".  Twinsburg Stamping was a very large employer in the City of Twinsburg, Ohio and when they closed that obviously was a major problem for that City.  The CFO would have been legally required to notify the County Budget Commission as soon as he/she became aware of the impending closure.  The Budget Commission could also independently call a meeting and demand the attendance of Twinsburg's CFO to basically say "hey, how are you going to balance your budget without this enormous taxpayer that is closing up?"  

Ohio and other States have Rainy Day Funds for exactly that eventuality as you pointed out.   

Cincydawg

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Re: Federal Debt and Deficit
« Reply #464 on: August 04, 2025, 01:15:32 PM »
Thanks for the very useful info and commentary and thoughts.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Federal Debt and Deficit
« Reply #465 on: August 04, 2025, 03:23:44 PM »
Some general concepts then I'll type out my thoughts on a balanced budget requirement that could plausibly be feasible.

First measurement:
It simply HAS TO BE measured as either a percentage of the budget or of revenues or of GDP.  This will seem obvious to most but in case it doesn't, here is why:
In 1790 US Federal Expenditures were $3.7 Million.  A dollar-denominated debt limitation passed at that time might have limited debt to three or four times that but lets say it was set up at 100x, that would still only be $370M.  According to AI, the Federal Government today spends approximately $6M per minute so that $370M limit would only cover about an hour.  

For a simpler example, lets say that someone on here said "I know a couple that has $150,000 in Credit Card debt."  My immediate response would be "ok, what do they make?"  I say that because without knowing what they make, the fact that they have $150k in CC Debt doesn't tell me much.  
Couple #1:
Couple #1 are both low-wage laborers who earn about $15/hr so they have a total annual household income of about $60k.  They have three kids, no investments, and do not own their home.  

Couple #2:
Couple #2 are both Neurosurgeons in a major City, lets say NYC.  They have a total annual household income of about $2M.  They are childless, have $4M in investments, and own a condo that is paid off.  

Couple #1 needs to file for bankruptcy.  There is no plausible way that they are going to pay off that amount of CC debt.  The monthly interest alone is probably close to their monthly income and they have to pay rent and feed five mouths.  

Couple #2 is financially fine.  At $2M/yr their monthly income is MORE than the $150,000 in CC debt.  Even after backing out taxes and whatnot they could probably pay that off with two or three months of cutting expenditures down to a more rational but still luxurious $25k/mo.  

It is the same with government.  New York City can support a lot more debt that some small village in upstate New York.  New York State can support a lot more debt than New York City, and the Federal Government can support a lot more than New York State.  

I prefer measuring in terms of % of GDP.  Ohio's debt limitation is based on property values which is not measuring the same thing as GDP but it basically measures wealth of the taxbase so it is getting at the same issue.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Federal Debt and Deficit
« Reply #466 on: August 04, 2025, 03:47:54 PM »
The second issue is the revenue estimate.  I simply cannot think of any reasonable way to handle this Federally other than historic.  

The problem with any estimate is that the person doing the estimating can juice the number.  I've seen both parties do this.  Republicans will claim that their tax cut will generate so much additional economic activity that it will increase revenue while Democrats will claim that their tax increase will have zero impact on the economy and zero impact on tax avoidance/evasion.  Both of those are wrong but both will say it with a straight face so how do we get around that issue?  

The only workable answer that I can come up with would be to use historic revenues with a growth factor.  One problem is that it would end up being a complex formula that people wouldn't institutively understand.  The reason is that their are LOTS of complications including:

  • I wouldn't want to give the Feds a bunch of extra money in a boom year.  
  • I wouldn't want to spike the budget in a bust year.  
To get around that I would base the revenue estimate on say ten years of actual history.  That leads to yet another complication:
The economy grows at an average of about 3.2%.  If you start out making $100 in year 1 and it grows by 3.2% you'll be making $132.78 in year 10.  I said above that I'd want to avoid spiking the budget either way based on boom/bust so I'd average the 10 years which gets you $115.70 but that is $17.08 LESS than you made in year 10.  So then you'd have to add enough to cover the growth from the midpoint of your 10 years and enough to cover the expected growth from year 10 to year 11.  You'd need to add 14.8% to get from the 10-year average to the year-10 figure then another 3.2% to get from year-10 to the expected amount for year-11.  That makes 18%.  

Additionally, I don't actually think the Federal Budget needs to be balanced.  In roughly the three decades after WWII the Federal Debt was "paid down" from over 100% of GDP to something like 30% of GDP.  I put "paid down" in quotes because they didn't actually reduce the debt.  The Federal Government actually ran small deficits most years but they grew their way out of the problem.  Ie, think of it this way:  Imagine that when you were in college with minimal income from low-wage PT employment you had $50k in CC Debt.  Then, over the course of 15 years you added $500/mo to your debt.  

$500/mo for 180 months (15 years) is $90k so 15 years after college your CC debt would now be $140k which is MORE than the $50K that you had during College.  However, owing $140k in CC debt might be a LOT less of a problem in your mid-30s with a good job than owing $50k in your early 20s with only PT minimum wage employment.  

Same concept here.  So long as the economy is growing and it has been for 250 years, I think the Federal Government could run deficits of say 2% of GDP forever.  Mathematically, so long as GDP growth was at least 2% the government could run deficits of 2% of GDP every year and the debt would never get worse.  

Thus, I'd use the average revenue from the preceding 10 years plus 20%.  However, we don't actually know that the 3.2% figure will be good forever (it almost certainly will not) so you'd have to actually make it a calculation based on historic data.  


The biggest problem that this creates is that if you wanted additional spending (and just assume for the sake of argument that it is for something that is supported by nearly all of the population, including being willing to pay additional taxes for it) you couldn't just raise taxes and increase spending because spending would be limited based on history so you'd have to raise taxes YEARS in advance of your intended spending increase.  Now I know that some of this audience will think that is a good thing and I don't altogether disagree ideologically but as a practical matter it isn't a very functional way to run a government.  

 

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