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So the end of the tOSU/Notre Dame game got me thinking about a few things. I thought I'd run them past this group. 

First, I don't exactly understand the rule regarding the PAT and as I understand it, it is different in CFB vs NFL:

The initial call on the field was that Ohio State scored to take a 16-14 lead as time expired. In that case, the game would have been over. Ohio State wins 16-14 and there is no PAT.

After review it was determined that tOSU did score to take a 16-14 lead, but they did so with 00:01 on the clock so the Buckeyes had a 16-14 lead but they still had to run a PAT play, kickoff, and IF time did not expire on the kickoff, play defense for one play.

First question:
Was it a mistake for Ohio State to even try the XP? If it had been blocked, ND could have returned it ~100 yards for 2 points and a tie game. Would it make more sense to just line up in the familiar victory formation and take a knee? The difference between a two and a three point lead is only relevant if the other team kicks a FG but how would ND kick a FG with only one second left? 

Probably makes sense to kick the XP because it is a routine and fairly low risk play and I suppose ND could have tried a long FG if Ohio State had somehow committed a personal foul or two on the kickoff. 

Second is more of a theory than a question but I'm curious what you guys think. Whenever our teams get into those Hail Mary situations I think we all immediately think of Hail Flutie or 

https://youtu.be/q3ykWbu2Gl0?si=uPJAAmQ6Re9EFnBH

Colorado's Kordell Stewart Miracle at Michigan:

https://youtu.be/0WCCLdf7rv8?si=SQfpj9tudtcbWjUE

The thing is that Colorado's miracle in Ann Arbor was 29 years ago and Boston College's Hail Flutie was 39 years ago. We still think and talk about those plays (everyone here knows those plays just by reference) because they are incredibly rare. For every successful Hail Mary TD there are probably hundreds of failures. 

What Notre Dame did in a similar situation makes more sense, IMHO. Instead of chucking the ball way down field and praying, they ran a hook-and-lateral in what I think was an effort to get more of their team involved.

Schematically the challenge that the offense faces is that only five guys can move beyond the LoS prior to a forward pass. In these situations the D typically only rushes three so the offense is outnumbered downfield by 8:5. 

When an offense throws a Hail Mary or runs a hook-and-lateral, they are severely outnumbered. 

Thus, my theory is that it would make more sense to run a play closer to or even behind the LoS where you could make it an 11 on 11 game.

My theory:

• Keep the C and QB in the game so you don't screw up the exchange. 
• Replace the OG's and OT's with faster TE's. Ie, your Oline would be a C and 4 TE's.
• Your other six guys should be a mix of RB's and WR's to put your best and smartest on the field.
• Let the Dline through and throw a screen to someone behind the C and the 4 TE's.

It probably wouldn't work but Hail Mary plays almost never work. At least this way all 11 guys can be involved in either blocking or carrying the ball.

I'd have strongly considered going for 2.

I'd have strongly considered going for 2.

Yeah, I don't like Notre Dame either but this is WAY too risky because a fumble ot INT returned the other way ties it up.

Thus, my theory is that it would make more sense to run a play closer to or even behind the LoS where you could make it an 11 on 11 game.

My theory:

• Keep the C and QB in the game so you don't screw up the exchange.
• Replace the OG's and OT's with faster TE's. Ie, your Oline would be a C and 4 TE's.
• Your other six guys should be a mix of RB's and WR's to put your best and smartest on the field.
• Let the Dline through and throw a screen to someone behind the C and the 4 TE's.

It probably wouldn't work but Hail Mary plays almost never work. At least this way all 11 guys can be involved in either blocking or carrying the ball.

So you're basically turning the play into a kickoff return. It's effectively a special teams play. And we know how often those result in TD's lol... Fundamentally you have the problem (as you always do) that the defense has the advantage of angles. 

IMHO if you're within throwing distance, the Hail Mary is the best option. It's quite frankly a chaos play, but the ball gets to the EZ and hopefully one of your players catches it. 

If you're too far away to throw the length of the field, all you can hope is to get your player in space and hope something good happens. I'd argue that the advantage of a hook & lateral is that A) you pick up some of that distance you need to cover through the air and B) the player that catches the lateral has built up a head of steam and is traveling at a high rate of speed. 

I feel like a screen pass or something like that gives the defense too much time to react. 

So you're basically turning the play into a kickoff return. It's effectively a special teams play. And we know how often those result in TD's lol... Fundamentally you have the problem (as you always do) that the defense has the advantage of angles.

It is definitely a low percentage play but in that situation all the options are low percentage plays. It is a question of how low.

IMHO if you're within throwing distance, the Hail Mary is the best option. It's quite frankly a chaos play, but the ball gets to the EZ and hopefully one of your players catches it.

If you're too far away to throw the length of the field, all you can hope is to get your player in space and hope something good happens. I'd argue that the advantage of a hook & lateral is that A) you pick up some of that distance you need to cover through the air and B) the player that catches the lateral has built up a head of steam and is traveling at a high rate of speed.

I feel like a screen pass or something like that gives the defense too much time to react.

You are probably right that the best option is to get the ball you the Endzone IF you can. In the famous plays from above:

• Hail Flutie appears to snap from about 48 yards out with Flutie actually throwing from about 65.
• Kordell Stewart's play appears to snap from about 65 yards out with Stewart actually throwing the ball from about 75 yards out. That is incredible.

Note that in both cases the QB ended up throwing from 10+ yards behind the LoS because he had to dance for time to allow his WR's to sprint the 50-70 yards to the EZ.

I'm assuming that Hartman simply doesn't have the arm to throw a 75 yard pass (not a knock, very few QB's do) so Marcus Freeman didn't have that option.

THIS

Ok, I think you and @betarhoalphadelta are right IF you are within throwing distance but what about when you aren't, like Notre Dame on Saturday night?

Ok, I think you and @betarhoalphadelta are right IF you are within throwing distance but what about when you aren't, like Notre Dame on Saturday night?

I think the advantage of a hook & lateral is multi-faceted:

• It takes the DL out of the play. Anything behind the LOS is close enough that those defenders are still involved in the play. 
• The defense is covering multiple receivers and is spread out in the secondary, because they don't know 100% that a hook & lateral is coming, who the initial receiver will be, and where the lateral player is coming from. 
• The play develops downfield and more quickly, so it is more likely that there will be fewer defenders in a position to make a play. 

If you're going to throw a screen or something behind the LOS, the entire defense is keyed in on the initial receiver / ballcarrier. The only realistic way to make it 75+ yards through that kind of a gauntlet involves laterals, to get the ball out of your hands as the defense closes in. However, as laterals are always backwards (and time-consuming), you give the defense even more time to react to those, as you're moving backwards in space, while also throwing the ball, increasing the chances of fumbling. Hence why "crazy lateral" plays work even LESS frequently than a hook & lateral.