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Topic: Electric Vehicle News Items

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Cincydawg

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #1344 on: March 01, 2024, 11:10:05 AM »
Maybe ~30 cents is a "typical" rate at a commercial unit?  The figure used below is highly optimistic.  If we use the Tesla figure and $0.30, the cost would be $7.20 per hundred miles, using a commercial charger at that probably lowish rate.  That's obviously better than my 33 mpg Hyundai at $3/gallon ($9, which is not markedly worse).

Charging at home in CA at 28 cents is roughly the same but gasoline is probably 50% more expensive there as well.  I keep coming up with various figures that don't show a marked lower cost of operation for an EV, unless we charge at home here at 15 cents or so.  

If I could charge at home at 15 cents, 100 miles in a Tesla would be $3.60 which starts to be decent.  I keep going back to this because I see all sorts of calculations like the one below showing a marked advantage but they nearly all speak to charging at home (which might be most of the charging).

What is kWh per 100 Miles? (jdpower.com)

Once a kWh/100 miles rating is known, a shopper can quickly calculate the cost to operate the vehicle by multiplying this figure by the price of electricity per kWh. 
For example, a 2021 Tesla Model 3 with a standard-range battery has a rating of 24 kWh/100 miles, while a Ford Mustang Mach-E with a standard-range battery has a rating of 34 kWh/100 miles. 

If the national average price of residential electricity costs 13.29 cents per kWh*, then the cost of charging the Tesla would be 24 kWh times 13.29 cents, which equals $3.19. The Ford, at 34 kWh, costs $4.52. That means driving the Model 3 a distance of 100 miles costs $1.33 less than driving a Mustang Mach-E the same distance. 

Furthermore, in this scenario, the annual cost of electricity to drive a Tesla Model 3 for 12,000 miles would be a thrifty $382.80 ($3.19 times 12,000 divided by 100). The Ford Mustang Mach-E would run you $542.40 for the year. That's an annual cost difference of $159.60.
However, keep in mind that the cost of electricity can vary significantly based on the time of day and where you are charging a vehicle.



betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #1345 on: March 01, 2024, 11:11:25 AM »
Well yeah, I'm assuming we're already including these types of known optimizations in our current estimates of battery life.
I'm assuming that "some" people's estimates of battery life are going to be as brutally low as humanly possible to fit an agenda, and that those people will not assume anything they don't have to. 

And of course you have the people on the other side who will make the most rosy assumptions they possibly can to make EVs seem like a panacea that will solve everything. Including Musk who says 300-500K, but you all know how much I believe anything that man says. 

IMHO we won't "know" until we have a lot more EVs on the road for a lot longer time. Tesla's got the big lead regarding vehicles on the road as well as having vehicles available for longer than most other manufacturers. I suspect we'll have a lot more real world understanding based on the time I'm next in the vehicle market. That's no sooner than 2027 unless my Flex has an issue too expensive to repair or an event (crash/theft/etc) which requires replacement. 

Even though I never plan to own a Tesla, if I were buying an EV today that would be the one I'd be most comfortable with, because they're farthest along the learning curve. By 2027 I hope that others are far enough that I have comfort with them, or else my next car will definitely be another ICEV. 

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #1346 on: March 01, 2024, 11:15:19 AM »
Right, so the ideal use cases remain the same.  Very good for urban drivers/suburban commuters or anyone else averaging under 100 miles per day and always returning to the same fixed point.

Less ideal for roadtrippers.

Impractical for roadtrippers who are towing heavy objects (and potentially always will be).
With today's capabilities, that's exactly right. 

I'm an occasional roadtripper, but not often enough that it would dissuade me from an EV if it fit everything else I needed it to do. I'm getting older and I'm more likely to appreciate a 20-30 minute stop every 3.5-4 hours these days on the road. 

Cincydawg

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #1347 on: March 01, 2024, 11:20:49 AM »
If I lived in CA and had a home, I'd look into a plug in hybrid, especially if my usual trips were inside ~30 miles.  The Toyota Prius, the new model, gets good reviews.

utee94

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #1348 on: March 01, 2024, 11:27:17 AM »
If I lived in CA and had a home, I'd look into a plug in hybrid, especially if my usual trips were inside ~30 miles.  The Toyota Prius, the new model, gets good reviews.
Ford now makes a hyrbid F150 with max towing capacity.  If I still need a truck with heavy towing capability when I'm back in the market for another vehicle, I'll look into that.  I've had my current truck since 2018 so realistically won't be looking again until 2030, I tend to keep my vehicles for at least 12 years.  

Of course it's also possible or even likely, that once the kids are out of high school in 5 years, I'll be looking to downsize the RV trailer or even make the move to a diesel pusher motorhome.  In which case I'd have no need of the pickup and might look at a passenger car again, rather than a truck or SUV, for the first time since 1994.

Cincydawg

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #1349 on: March 01, 2024, 11:46:32 AM »
I wonder how easy it is to tow a small EV behind a motorhome, what the issues might be.  You probably can charge it by towing it, but that has other issues.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #1350 on: March 01, 2024, 11:52:36 AM »
I know my driving behavior today would easily be handled by a BEV. And that once the kids start moving out of the house, it'll be even more so.

But that's also the problem. Unless I start driving a lot more, the payback period in fuel/energy savings of the higher BEV acquisition cost will be even longer. And it's more likely that the kids being out of the house will lead to LESS driving. In fact, starting this summer when my oldest gets his license, it will likely take a LOT of pressure off me for transferring the kids to/from their mom and driving them to / picking them up from school. At least for two years until he graduates, but then my daughter will be getting closer to driving as well. It'll probably be another 2 years and then I'll have little to no "kid transportation" responsibilities. 

The one who would probably benefit the most would be my wife. But she doesn't want an EV, because Gavin Newsom told her everyone's supposed to have one and she hates being told what to do :57:

utee94

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #1351 on: March 01, 2024, 11:59:13 AM »
I wonder how easy it is to tow a small EV behind a motorhome, what the issues might be.  You probably can charge it by towing it, but that has other issues.
Small cars of any kind are commonly and easily used as "toads" behind a moho.  You could likely use the towing to generate electricity to charge the battery. You would of course want software and hardware failsafes to prevent over-charging.

People tend to tow whatever kind of vehicle is most useful at their final destinations.  For older retired folks, who are parking in urban or suburban RV parks, it's generally a small car or SUV to get around town.

For the adventurous back-country camping types, it's usually a Jeep or some other suitable offroad vehicle, to get them further into the back-country after they've established the motorhome as their base camp.  So your "toad" vehicle is entirely dependent on your lifestyle or reason for camping in the motorhome.

But there's no reason a small or even medium-sized EV wouldn't work in many situations.  Large motorhomes tend to have a large towing capacity.

Cincydawg

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #1352 on: March 01, 2024, 12:05:10 PM »
I heard stories about moho towing a small car and burning out the transmission.  I guess an EV can be put in "neutral" somehow.  Or not.

What Cars Can Be Flat-Towed? | Edmunds



EVs can't be flat-towed either

With electric vehicles gaining in popularity, you might be wondering if you can flat-tow them. It might seem like because most don't have traditional transmissions and can be put into neutral they can be flat-towed, but this isn't true. The electric motors will always be connected to the wheels, and as you tow your electric vehicle behind your RV, the wheels will spin the motors. This may cause damage to the electric motors and, as a result, flat towing an EV isn't advisable.


utee94

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #1353 on: March 01, 2024, 12:10:52 PM »
I heard stories about moho towing a small car and burning out the transmission.  I guess an EV can be put in "neutral" somehow.  Or not.

What Cars Can Be Flat-Towed? | Edmunds



EVs can't be flat-towed either

With electric vehicles gaining in popularity, you might be wondering if you can flat-tow them. It might seem like because most don't have traditional transmissions and can be put into neutral they can be flat-towed, but this isn't true. The electric motors will always be connected to the wheels, and as you tow your electric vehicle behind your RV, the wheels will spin the motors. This may cause damage to the electric motors and, as a result, flat towing an EV isn't advisable.



Yes, you can only tow a vehicle that can be put completely into neutral.  I've seen plenty of pictures of toad vehicles that were destroyed because their owner failed to do so.

As far as EVs currently, I assume they just haven't decided the use case of flat towing behind a moho is important enough to address.

If they ever did so, then there's no reason you wouldn't be able to decouple the wheels from the motors, or even design the wheels to generate electricity through the motors while being towed.  It would take additional development and additional components, which I suppose could force the price high enough to make it an undesirable solution financially, but technologically there's no reason it couldn't be addressed.

Cincydawg

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #1354 on: March 01, 2024, 12:31:56 PM »
The lack of manual transmission vehicles, plus an increase in the number of vehicles with continuously variable transmissions (CVTs) and front-wheel-drive and full- and part-time four-wheel-drive systems, have thinned the list to its lowest point in years. Vehicles with a CVT cannot be towed with all four wheels on the ground because it would damage the transmission.

Toyota, for instance, makes several vehicles that would seem ideal for flat towing. For hearty off-road adventurers, there are the 4Runner and the FJ Cruiser, the latter still popular although it's no longer in production. And while they're fine on their own on rough terrain, the company's four-wheel-drive trucks don't make the grade when it comes to flat towing. In fact, no automatic transmission vehicle from Toyota, Lexus or the discontinued Scion brand is suitable for dinghy towing.

It all has to do with transmission lubrication, according to Toyota. Some Toyota vehicles require continuous operation of a pump inside the transmission to keep the moving parts lubricated, and those cars can't be towed four-down. With automatic transmissions and pump-dependent manuals, the output shaft isn't being lubricated unless the vehicle's engine is running, and a car can suffer severe transmission damage if it is towed with the driven wheels rolling along the highway, turning the driveshaft or, in the case of front-wheel-drive cars, the half shafts.



Cincydawg

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #1355 on: March 01, 2024, 12:34:22 PM »
I seem my Hyundai Tuscon is not supposed to be flat towed.  I suspect most AWD vehicles would have issues.

utee94

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #1356 on: March 01, 2024, 01:21:52 PM »

Cincydawg

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #1357 on: March 01, 2024, 03:06:46 PM »
That looks complicated to me, unduly so, but probably not many tow an F-150.  I see folks towing CR Vs fairly often and think it might be ruining their AWD.


 

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