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Topic: Electric Vehicle News Items

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Cincydawg

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #602 on: April 05, 2023, 12:55:03 PM »
GM Overtakes Ford As The No. 2 Seller Of EVs In US, Trails Tesla (insideevs.com)

What does the future look like?  Is Tesla going to maintain it's healthy lead?  Will all these folks getting into the area now prosper?

Will ICE cars have a market far past 2035?

I'd note 21,000 EV sales oer quarter  by GM is a fraction of their overall sales volume.

GM said it sold 2.27 million vehicles in the U.S. in 2022, up by 2.5% over 2021.

847badgerfan

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #603 on: April 05, 2023, 01:15:57 PM »
As of now, I don't think it's not practical for us.

We have to run the A/C nearly all the time here. That takes juice on top of moving the car.
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FearlessF

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #604 on: April 05, 2023, 01:26:56 PM »
better leave the gas pumps up for a while
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #605 on: April 05, 2023, 01:29:00 PM »
GM Overtakes Ford As The No. 2 Seller Of EVs In US, Trails Tesla (insideevs.com)

What does the future look like?  Is Tesla going to maintain it's healthy lead?  Will all these folks getting into the area now prosper?

Will ICE cars have a market far past 2035?

I'd note 21,000 EV sales oer quarter  by GM is a fraction of their overall sales volume.

GM said it sold 2.27 million vehicles in the U.S. in 2022, up by 2.5% over 2021.

I find it very interesting to speculate where Tesla will be in 10 years. 

Pros:

  • Significant first mover advantage in technology and experience. I expect the big players to face a learning curve with the first few high-volume models to be able to catch up. 
  • First mover advantage in Supercharger infrastructure. 
  • Ecosystem network effects, similar to Apple, in being integrated. For example on a road trip your car knows where all the Tesla Supercharger stations are, can route your trip such that you're hitting them at the right remaining battery percentages, automatically preps the battery thermally for charging while you approach the station to reduce charging time, etc. 
  • Brand equity, also similar to Apple. I think most Tesla owners don't think you REALLY own an EV if it's not a Tesla. 
  • Attempt to actually get a lead in vertical integration and a lead in battery technology. I've stated previously my thesis that batteries, being such an important piece of the EV build cost, are an area that an EV maker needs some differentiation to make the transition. I'm not sure how much of it is Tesla and how much is Panasonic, but if you listen to Tesla, they crow about their tech. 
  • Self-driving. Right now it seems to be vaporware, in the sense that although they have the most advanced L2 system out there, I don't know if they can ever build that into L4/L5 capability. But if they can, it would be massive. 

Cons:

  • No truck. The one they have, if it ever makes it into production, will be late and looks stupid. It's an important vehicle category and they've ceded first mover advantage there. 
  • Stale product lineup. Model S and X are long in the tooth. In a traditional automaker, they'd have been refreshed by now, perhaps twice. Model 3 probably on its first refresh by now. 
  • Finances. Tesla with the limited lineup has to be a growth company. They're now on MUCH stronger financial footing than they were a few years ago when I think they had serious liquidity problems and had to do a cash raise. But do they have the funding to achieve the growth they need? In today's financial environment, can they raise more funding at acceptable cost to get there?
  • Elon Musk. Tesla fans think he's Steve Jobs 2.0, but whereas Jobs was hyper-focused and had insane attention to detail, Musk is scatterbrained and wants to do everything all at once. And now he's got his hands into Twitter. 
  • Consistent inability to do things on time. Hence Cybertruck. Hence Full Self Driving. Robotaxis. Etc. You can do that when you have first mover advantage. You can't do that when you're trying to defend first mover advantage. 
  • Focus on aspects of driving that are less important to most drivers. Largely due to Musk IMHO. I.e. over-emphasis on 0-60 time. Whereas most car owners really want a car that's fast enough to merge onto the freeway but don't care beyond that. 
  • Not as "luxury" as they think. The Model 3 always gets compared to BMW and Mercedes and Audi because of price, not actual luxury. And "Luxury" is not the biggest area for automotive volume--Tesla hasn't shown the ability to go down-market, despite continuously promising such. 
  • Losing the "cool factor". I'll tell you that here in SoCal, nobody thinks Tesla is cool any more except Tesla owners. And there are so many of them that it's not an exclusive club either. If you drive a Model 3, it doesn't even garner a first look, much less a second look. 


The next 10 years of the EV market are going to be wild. Tesla has a lead. We'll see if they can do anything with it. 

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #606 on: April 06, 2023, 09:54:18 AM »
My question is who is going to be the first to build and operate charging stations (a la gas stations) nationwide?  Will an existing oil company make a plan to transform 20% of their gas stations to full charging stations, spread out around the country?  Or will a new upstart pop up and do it?
Someone will have to do something, if EVs are going to make any type of big leap.
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Cincydawg

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #607 on: April 06, 2023, 09:58:12 AM »
We would need more charging stations than pumps for obvious reasons, at least at current rates of charging.

The gas stations are nearly all independently owned.  Very few are owned by "Exxon" etc..  If there is demand, they will get built.  Our Kroger already has two separate private charging stations in their parking lot.  I think this is the way of the nearer future, stations where folks are going to be spending some time anyway.

I think I read VW is also getting into the game.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #608 on: April 06, 2023, 10:48:20 AM »
My question is who is going to be the first to build and operate charging stations (a la gas stations) nationwide?  Will an existing oil company make a plan to transform 20% of their gas stations to full charging stations, spread out around the country?  Or will a new upstart pop up and do it?
Someone will have to do something, if EVs are going to make any type of big leap.
It's already being done. Obviously Tesla has their Supercharger network. There are others that aren't directly affiliated with specific automakers like Electrify America and Chargepoint, although I believe (as CD alludes to) that Electrify America is partially owned/funded by automakers including VW.

We would need more charging stations than pumps for obvious reasons, at least at current rates of charging.


I disagree that we need more stations, even with the slower rate of charge. IMHO EV fueling stations are unlikely to be as plentiful as gas stations. If you ask most EV owners, one of the best things about an EV is that you charge it at home. The range is sufficient for most owners that the only time they'd need to use a third-party charger is on a road trip. They love the fact that they almost never have to go to a gas station.

I often highlight this, however, as one reason that EV adoption may not be as fast as some predict. The cost advantage makes the most sense when you charge at home, because third-party charging will be at higher rates than home service. And given the number of people in this country who live in apartments, who rent single-family homes (where an owner might not be willing to pay for a charger), or live in places where all they have access to is street parking, home charging won't be feasible for them.

Cincydawg

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #609 on: April 06, 2023, 11:30:18 AM »
Yeah, if most folks charge at home, that alleviates the issue substantially.  We still have a lot of interstate travel with cars and trucks.  And it takes a while to recharge when you are traveling.  We might not need so many chargers "around town" though. (which oddly is where most reside now).

But this transition is going to be gradual in the US anyway, at best.  I know "everyone" is pushing it, but the best? estimate I read is that by 2050, half the cars in the US will burn gasoline.  One can of course roughly approximate the replacement rates if by 2035 all new cars are EVs (which won't be the case outside a few states, and in those states I expect to see get arounds galore).

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #610 on: April 06, 2023, 11:47:41 AM »
Yeah, if most folks charge at home, that alleviates the issue substantially.  We still have a lot of interstate travel with cars and trucks.  And it takes a while to recharge when you are traveling.  We might not need so many chargers "around town" though. (which oddly is where most reside now).

But this transition is going to be gradual in the US anyway, at best.  I know "everyone" is pushing it, but the best? estimate I read is that by 2050, half the cars in the US will burn gasoline.  One can of course roughly approximate the replacement rates if by 2035 all new cars are EVs (which won't be the case outside a few states, and in those states I expect to see get arounds galore).
2050 is 27 years away. If there is not a seismic shift in transportation in this country between now and then, largely caused by autonomous driving, I'll be surprised. 

I think autonomy is harder than many of its proponents believe, but that it'll be here well before 2050. 

Cincydawg

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #611 on: April 06, 2023, 01:45:49 PM »
The Cadillac SuperCruise system seems to be pretty good already.  I think a sea change will happen when heavy trucks go autonomous.

Gigem

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #612 on: April 06, 2023, 03:03:11 PM »
2050 is 27 years away. If there is not a seismic shift in transportation in this country between now and then, largely caused by autonomous driving, I'll be surprised.

I think autonomy is harder than many of its proponents believe, but that it'll be here well before 2050.
I think the biggest issue with Automomous Driving is getting all the cars with some level of Autonomy.  When you have all or most cars driving themselves and talking to the other nearby cars as well you make it easier.  One single person driven car out of 30 AD messes it up, because that one factor is not programmable.  

847badgerfan

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #613 on: April 06, 2023, 03:04:29 PM »
^^^

Great point.
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FearlessF

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #614 on: April 06, 2023, 03:37:46 PM »
seems to me there are many points that aren't programmable 
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #615 on: April 06, 2023, 04:32:05 PM »
The Cadillac SuperCruise system seems to be pretty good already.  I think a sea change will happen when heavy trucks go autonomous.
"Pretty good" is not autonomous. 

 

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