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Topic: December 2nd, 2017: A Nice Day to Crown Some Champions

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CWSooner

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Re: December 2nd, 2017: A Nice Day to Crown Some Champions
« Reply #238 on: December 03, 2017, 01:41:14 PM »
I'm glad to hear that UW will keep doing what it does, Badge.

Of course, the downside to that kind of offense is that it's hard to come back from very hard behind.  (We had that same problem with the wishbone in the 1970s and '80s, especially playing Miami in 1985-87.)  The 21-7 point deficit that you guys fell into last night proved to be too big a hole to climb out of in the time remaining.  If the game had had an extra 15 minutes, my money (were I a betting man) would have been on Wisconsin.

Settling (or having to settle) for 3 just before halftime was a critical failure.  And having to punt the ball back to tOSU with about 3:30 left in the game after getting the 4th-down stop was another.  You forced a 3-and-out, but you didn't have enough time and time-outs left to go 71 yards in grind-it-out fashion.  So you had to put it on Hornibrook's back, and he's not the guy you want to put in that position.
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FearlessF

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Re: December 2nd, 2017: A Nice Day to Crown Some Champions
« Reply #239 on: December 03, 2017, 01:51:03 PM »
it's not just that, but the play calling, reads, terminology all that is much easier on a QB than the pro-style. Way less on his plate, things are simplified for the QB.
I don't buy that.  Any offense can be very complicated regardless of scheme or very simple
I believe Wisconsin simplifies things for their QB pretty well
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bayareabadger

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Re: December 2nd, 2017: A Nice Day to Crown Some Champions
« Reply #240 on: December 03, 2017, 02:25:11 PM »
I don't buy that.  Any offense can be very complicated regardless of scheme or very simple
I believe Wisconsin simplifies things for their QB pretty well
I disagree a little. I think pro-style passing games are harder to teach and build. I also think they're harder to stop with equivalent level of talent and good execution. But when it's bad, it's BAD. 
I see it a little like running a spread on the HS level. 

bayareabadger

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Re: December 2nd, 2017: A Nice Day to Crown Some Champions
« Reply #241 on: December 03, 2017, 02:26:44 PM »
how many TEs have the Badgers lost this season?
To add to what Badge said, also lost the best two receivers they had. 

FearlessF

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Re: December 2nd, 2017: A Nice Day to Crown Some Champions
« Reply #242 on: December 03, 2017, 02:50:44 PM »
I was wondering about blocking TEs..  Easier to have 2 or 3 of them on the roster

really shouldn't have to move tackles to TE this late in the season

those can easily be walk-on player positions, big farm boys that like to stick their nose in
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bayareabadger

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Re: December 2nd, 2017: A Nice Day to Crown Some Champions
« Reply #243 on: December 03, 2017, 02:54:03 PM »
He will not be the starter next season. Jack Coan will.

https://247sports.com/Player/Jack-Coan-81368/high-school-141092

I'm not sure if this a Badge knows or Badge hopes/thinks. If you don't want to put that all out there, maybe shoot me a PM?

I'm of two minds about Alex. He's fascinating because this year, he's done some things EXTREMELY well, and some quite poorly. His picks are a problem, his sacks tend to be massive and more frequent than you'd like (though not to an unreal level) and when he looks bad, it's bad. 

But he's also put in a lot of high-leverage situations, and has been pretty good. Before OSU, Wisconsin ran the ball the 7th most in non-passing downs (1st and 10, 2nd and 3, 3rd and 1) and ran the 87th-most on passing downs. So UW often has him throwing when opponents know the throw is coming. Despite that, the Badger offense gets it done in throwing spots. When UW throws, it stayed ahead of the chains or moved them (before last night) 46.8 percent of the time, 16th best in the land. Against OSU, that percent was 44, better than the national average of 40, against a sold defense on that front. UW finished the year third in 3rd-down conversions, and wasn't all that great running on third-and-short. Could a ton of that be Fumagalli being amazing? Yep, But Alex was throwing those passes, and he was short some good guys on the outside (UW was not very explosive through the air, probably some on him, some on WRs). 

I thought his yards per attempt might be instructive, but it dropped the last two games to 20th nationally. UW's good, non-Russell Wilson QBs (Stocco and Tolzien) were in the low teens or top-10 when Scott hit 73 percent of his passes. That said, when those two were Alex's age, Stocco was a hot mess and Tolzien was behind Evridge and Sherer, and would've been behind Phillips were he not redshirting. 

That's not to say I lack faith in Coan. Kid was a better recruit than Alex. Kid was good enough (or Lyles was not good enough) he didn't redshirt. I hope the staff is so excited about him, he'll be a starter, and that he lives up to it. But I went through years of hearing Donovan was better than Stocco. Then when we got Donovan, he was no junior/senior Stocco, though he wasn't as bad as I thought in the moment. But as Donovan started, there were rumblings Evridge was actually killing it in practice. We know how that ended.

In short, I think Alex was somewhat volatile, but I liked his upside in his current environment. If that can continue without Fum and he can keep progressing, that'd be peachy. And if Coan can top someone that entrenched, it means he's shown a lot. 

Mdot21

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Re: December 2nd, 2017: A Nice Day to Crown Some Champions
« Reply #244 on: December 03, 2017, 02:59:33 PM »
I don't buy that.  Any offense can be very complicated regardless of scheme or very simple
I believe Wisconsin simplifies things for their QB pretty well
you can buy it or not, doesn't mean it's not the truth.
https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2017/8/31/16231484/quarterback-problem-evaluation-spread-dak-prescott-derek-carr
https://www.footballstudyhall.com/2017/6/29/15824578/pro-style-vs-college-style-offense-that-is-the-question-alabama-michigan-spread
https://www.theringer.com/2016/8/24/16077158/nfl-spread-offense-quarterbacks-72148a036561
here's a telling excerpt from one of those articles:
Childress said the quarterbacks with the steepest learning curve are those who played in no-huddle spread schemes. He believes this is the one place where there can be only so much compromise: Because NFL defenses are more complicated, information-heavy play calls in the huddle are crucial. Spread quarterbacks, meanwhile, typically communicate with hand signals or one-word calls. NFL teams have attempted to replicate their college brethren over the past five years by occasionally opting for no-huddle looks as a curveball, but it’s still a change-of-pace exception, not the norm.

“[College spread quarterbacks] never had to say ‘red switch right closed end right split z halfback flat’ — they don’t know who to talk to when and when to take a breath,” Childress said. That’s hardly the only challenge: “You don’t realize how big a problem the center-quarterback exchange is,” Childress said, “until the ball is rolling on the ground at practice and you’re saying ‘Oh my god.’”


The game is constantly evolving, changing. And it's changed so much over the last 15-20 years, it's nuts. Last 10 or so years alone, only Bama and FSU have run pro schemes to win the national title. And only FSU was a really tuned up version of the pro style with option routes ontop of option routes, Bama's pro scheme was pretty dumbed down compared to that. Bama can get away with it because they've had the #1 recruiting class every year for like 9 years straight.

FearlessF

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Re: December 2nd, 2017: A Nice Day to Crown Some Champions
« Reply #245 on: December 03, 2017, 03:12:17 PM »
Childress is an idiot

Tom Osborne's offenses were not simple

one reason freshmen didn't play very often

NFL style offenses can be simplified

spreads or QB run offenses can be very complex

if the coach wants to make an offense simple or complex he can do it

you don't have to agree
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Mdot21

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Re: December 2nd, 2017: A Nice Day to Crown Some Champions
« Reply #246 on: December 03, 2017, 03:19:46 PM »
Childress is an idiot

Tom Osborne's offenses were not simple

one reason freshmen didn't play very often

NFL style offenses can be simplified

spreads or QB run offenses can be very complex

if the coach wants to make an offense simple or complex he can do it

you don't have to agree
Ok.

ELA

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MaximumSam

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Re: December 2nd, 2017: A Nice Day to Crown Some Champions
« Reply #248 on: December 07, 2017, 10:27:26 AM »
Harbaugh simplifying the offense was a big reason his 49ers team magically looked good on offense.  NFL coaches have a habit of trying to make things overly complicated then blaming the players when they fail.  The Rams simplified things this year and magically turned around everything, too.  

847badgerfan

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Re: December 2nd, 2017: A Nice Day to Crown Some Champions
« Reply #249 on: December 07, 2017, 10:36:58 AM »
Wisconsin's offense is anything but simple. So much motion and so many formations and so many player groupings. It's a lot for a QB to learn, which is good and bad.
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